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> The Concept of Formula
pf4ugc4
post Mar 18 2009, 01:46 AM
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I believe this is a new era on gb, where formulas are becoming more and more popular, developed, and necessary. But nobody really takes the time to look deeper into the concept for formulating for gb, so i've taken the first step in this almost essay-looking explanation of it. This will not just help "noobs who do not know how to form," this will help everyone (even though some may already know everything that i am about to say, at least it will help them think into it deeper). Lastly, please please PLEASE do not spam this topic; I want to develop this game, so please respect that and respect me by not posting shit like "fake" or emot-words.gif "forms are for noobs" (if someone does, dan please keep an eye out? thanks buddy, u know where im coming from, and i think u'll support this fully). thanks!!!






There are various types of formulas that one can use in GB. Before I list them, consider the factors that are involved in formulation:
- angle
- power
- wind
- elevation (vertical position)
- distance (horizontal position)
- time
Essentially, formulas put all these factors together into simple hit-your-target-on-GB results. Once you play around with those variables, you get a number of types of formulas.




So without further due, here are the types of formulas for GB:


- Fixed Angle = uses one angle and one angle only; add/subtract power depending on wind, elevation, and tornadoes. Example, fixed angle 35, fixed angle 50, fixed angle 70, etc.
(comments on this formula: this type is the most accurate type of formula, but it is more time-consuming.)


- Fixed Power = uses one power and one power only; raise/lower angles depending on wind, elevation, and tornadoes. Example, fixed 3.0 power, fixed full power 4.0, fixed 2.5, etc.
(comments on this formula: this type of formula is usually ineffective because of distance. since you change angles up and down and not power, it generalizes a wide range of angles. However, it is faster to calculate.)


- BJSL = uses one base angle and one base angle only; raise/lower angles depending on wind, elevation, and tornadoes. Example, 70BJSL, 80BJSL, 60BJSL, etc.
(comments on this formula: this is similar to fixed power, and likewise it is not the most effective type of formula, but it is better than fixed power. It is the easiest to calculate).


- Fixed Timing = uses one timing and one timing only; raise/lower angles + add/subtract power depending on wind, elevation, and tornadoes. Example, Fixed Timing for Turtle TimeBombs/SkyBombs SS (2.14 seconds).
(comments on this formula: this type of formula has the potential to achieve as much precision as fixed angle formulas, or even more, but it usually does not because those who make these usually generalize a group of angles and a group of powers. This formula is more complicated and more time-consuming than all of the above).


----------------Those are the main types, the following are rather useless or just unheard of----------------------


- Fixed Angle + Power = uses one angle and one power; distance is automatically altered by wind, elevation, tornadoes. An example would be if you wanted to use 70 3.0 for all your shots. This formula would essentially tell you where you need to be in order to hit your targets with that angle and power all the time.
(comments on this formula: helps you think outside the box because the changing variable is distance, not the usual stuff. And, i mean, if you have move hack, you could use this formula!)


- Fixed Angle + Timing = uses one angle and one time; power automatically altered by wind, elevation, tornadoes. An example is if you wanted to use angle 35 and wanted it to be on the air for 2 seconds and 2 seconds only. This formula would essentially tell you what power you need to use for your angle35-2second shots.
(comments on this formula: there is no practical use for this formula, but you could use it to tell people "that is right, I only use angle 70 for 3 seconds")


- Distance-based Timing = uses different fixed timings depending on different distances; angle and power are automatically altered by wind, elevation, tornadoes.
(comments on this formula: complicated and time-consuming, yet it has the potential to have great precision. A common problem is again generalizing a group of angles and powers into one wind chart)


- Distance & Wind Based Timing = uses different fixed timings for different distances under no wind, but those timings are affected by wind. angle, power, and time are automatically altered by wind, elevation, tornadoes. Example, Trico shot 2. This formula essentially tells you the angle and power that you need for your shot to have its wind 0 timing based on the distance that your target is at.



I believe that would be it. Any questions, concerns, or comments? If there is anything you can contribute to this attempt of categorizing formulas, please do so.


*not mentioned in this topic: methods of formulating for specific formula types.
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xDemonessx
post Mar 18 2009, 02:05 AM
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this pretty much slaps the feel vs forumula thread in the face, because its actually true. the game has gotten to the point that there are almost too many answers to shooting 1screen distance. people who have played this game for 6 years even without formulas know this simply from experience. its all about memorizing them and doing a quick math problem for the wind. really, gunbound is retardedly easy. the question is how many formulas do they know, i recently picked up bjsl and created my own fixed power method of shooting with most bots.

However this does nothing for the game still, item 2 and the fact that 90% of the user base is hacking or has hacked will make all of the effort for nothing.



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pf4ugc4
post Mar 18 2009, 02:19 AM
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thanks for the prompt response emot-aaa.gif and though not a contribuitive post (no offense!) i'd like to address some of the things u brought up.

the season 2 shit (with the exception of mirrors, and other interesting things like jet-pack) does make the game less serious. but the game has been changing for years! and players have adjusted. i cant offer a direct solution to this but the obvious--play with friends and avoid the use of gay shit. but perhaps a more appealing solution is GB America, the new server that looks like GBNA (mobiles have same life+delay, and interfaces are the same) but with no season 2 stuff. im not gonna go off topic and talk to much about it, but many people from gbna, even entire guilds, have switched over already. if ur interested, http://gunbound.kyalon.net/

now, i would like to quickly clarify something. throughout time, the word "Feel" has inevitably changed meanings. oh man u just got me hyped up, nvm i'll leave this for another essay! haha emot-eng101.gif GB terminology essay comin soon!

my main point is. my attempt to develop the concept for formula is not about doing quick math or using physics, its about understanding the ways (of the jedi, yes i said it) and really grasping the shit you're doing when you raise 3 angles with your 70bjsl. formulas have been forever unexplored and even discriminated against, so please help me change that.



hint hint. posts i would like to see more or less go like this
"professor efrain, i would like to elaborate a little more on the variables u listed (wind, elevation, etc) from a physics point of view" go ahead student! or
"professor efrain, i must challenge your comments on fixed power by offering a solution to the distance limitation: instead of using one chart for 3.0, make a 3.0 chart for 1/4sd, 1/2sd, 3/4sd, 1sd, etc" go ahead student!

thanks
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xDemonessx
post Mar 18 2009, 03:00 AM
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QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 18 2009, 03:19 AM) *

thanks for the prompt response emot-aaa.gif and though not a contribuitive post (no offense!) i'd like to address some of the things u brought up.

the season 2 shit (with the exception of mirrors, and other interesting things like jet-pack) does make the game less serious. but the game has been changing for years! and players have adjusted. i cant offer a direct solution to this but the obvious--play with friends and avoid the use of gay shit. but perhaps a more appealing solution is GB America, the new server that looks like GBNA (mobiles have same life+delay, and interfaces are the same) but with no season 2 stuff. im not gonna go off topic and talk to much about it, but many people from gbna, even entire guilds, have switched over already. if ur interested, http://gunbound.kyalon.net/

now, i would like to quickly clarify something. throughout time, the word "Feel" has inevitably changed meanings. oh man u just got me hyped up, nvm i'll leave this for another essay! haha emot-eng101.gif GB terminology essay comin soon!

my main point is. my attempt to develop the concept for formula is not about doing quick math or using physics, its about understanding the ways (of the jedi, yes i said it) and really grasping the shit you're doing when you raise 3 angles with your 70bjsl. formulas have been forever unexplored and even discriminated against, so please help me change that.



hint hint. posts i would like to see more or less go like this
"professor efrain, i would like to elaborate a little more on the variables u listed (wind, elevation, etc) from a physics point of view" go ahead student! or
"professor efrain, i must challenge your comments on fixed power by offering a solution to the distance limitation: instead of using one chart for 3.0, make a 3.0 chart for 1/4sd, 1/2sd, 3/4sd, 1sd, etc" go ahead student!

thanks


if by adjusting you mean playing in rooms that say no item 2 then i would agree. Otherwise, the only adjusting that went on was people starting buying cash items. The servers peak is like 1.5k players during the day, and dont give me that "everyone is in school" shit. you know its true. GB is less than half the following it once was. I'd go as far as to say im the only one that still even bothers with the game on the main servers that posts here actively. but like you said, this is in no way contributing and just my opinion. Admittedly i play in low traffic times, that still doesnt deter from the fact that either its mostly stacked teams or hacking rooms.

Players who play in no item 2 rooms have considerably more skill then those in cash rooms however, so it really depends who youre up against. Avoiding hackers is not entirely impossible but its twice as annoying when people bitch about you using lava when they are using cash items. its even worse when youre almost at 200kgp, im lucky if i dont get kicked instantly. In case you are wondering, i sign on early mornings and actually talk about formulas often with randoms. "Mezz" has come up on several occasions when it came down to trico formula, and people who used to come here still play.


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mezz
post Mar 18 2009, 06:14 AM
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You just got spammed by an Administrator. How does this make you feel?

I would like to elaborate on fixed timing.
Fixed timing is the only method that (when done correctly) breaks up wind into vertical and horizontal components. The vertical component is handled by change in power, and the horizontal component is handled by changing the angle.
By doing this it is the only method that can create a universal windchart that works for any angle/power/distance, as long as the airtime is the same.


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pf4ugc4
post Mar 18 2009, 01:39 PM
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i'll just ignore and address the valuable posts...

mezz, thats an interesting point, a couple of questions

first, i assume you say that fixed timing would the most precise formula type of all in theory, right? because in practicality, players generalize angles 31-39 in one wind chart, and that right there basically defeats the purpose of precision, do u agree? but i definitely think ur right though, in theory, fixed timing would surpass the other types of formula as far as precision goes.

and second, this could also apply to distance-based timing correct? it is the same concept except the timings change based on the distance. my question is, if you have all the correct base times (wind 0), would this formula type have the potential (again, in theory) to be the most accurate?

thanks a lot for your input
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mezz
post Mar 18 2009, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 18 2009, 12:39 PM) *

i'll just ignore and address the valuable posts...

mezz, thats an interesting point, a couple of questions

first, i assume you say that fixed timing would the most precise formula type of all in theory, right? because in practicality, players generalize angles 31-39 in one wind chart, and that right there basically defeats the purpose of precision, do u agree? but i definitely think ur right though, in theory, fixed timing would surpass the other types of formula as far as precision goes.

and second, this could also apply to distance-based timing correct? it is the same concept except the timings change based on the distance. my question is, if you have all the correct base times (wind 0), would this formula type have the potential (again, in theory) to be the most accurate?

thanks a lot for your input

To overcome the problem of limited angle ranges for the windchart, you can use yoyobuae's chart method.
http://www.gbgl-hq.com/forum/index.php?sho...c=1939&st=0
This is pretty time consuming, but it helped me visualize how wind affects shots at different distances given a fixed time.

If you have fixed time and fixed distance, you can have a traditional windchart that is perfectly accurate.

You mentioned trico under fixed-distance method
The problem with trico is that it's not perfectly fixed-distance when there is wind. In fact, it is different from all the methods you mentioned.
The angle the shots come down must match the angle of the cabbages. This can be estimated using "fixed time" if there is no wind, but a strong wind will affect the angle the cabbages come down at, so you need to change your fixed-time calculation to a different number. A fixed-distance type of wind compensation or a fixed-time compensation alone are not enough.
I don't know what you could call this method... but I think it is different from the rest.


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xDemonessx
post Mar 19 2009, 01:04 AM
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i would have to totally agree with james, the only way ive ever managed to get a 3 in 1 with trico was me actually predicting and measuring airtime rather than distance. if you play often enough you can probably even pick this up just from listening to the shot. i noticed this after using 70bjsl after so long, and it really helped me understand the use of power adjustments exponentially vs angle adjustments in certain situations. its gotten to the point where after playing this game every so often for years, i really can see the parabola being changed according to the wind. the hard part for me is getting used to shooting past 1 screen in some winds using this "theory"

granted, you have a point its not precise at all but when practiced - i guess it would have to be called "feel" in this situation you can measure off of airtime alone. it shouldnt matter what bot.


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pf4ugc4
post Mar 19 2009, 01:24 AM
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mezz, does that chart only do turtle shots or fixed timing shots? or how could u apply it for different mobiles/shots?

trico. let me see if i understand what ur sayin. do u mean that a shot fired at angle 45 has to hit the target at 315 degree? (i doubt thats wat ur sayin). if not, please provide me an example of what u meant by wind affecting the angle of the shot's downfall. thanks :)
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mezz
post Mar 19 2009, 02:48 AM
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QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 19 2009, 12:24 AM) *

mezz, does that chart only do turtle shots or fixed timing shots? or how could u apply it for different mobiles/shots?

trico. let me see if i understand what ur sayin. do u mean that a shot fired at angle 45 has to hit the target at 315 degree? (i doubt thats wat ur sayin). if not, please provide me an example of what u meant by wind affecting the angle of the shot's downfall. thanks :)

Lets say there is a 24 wind against your shot and you are shooting at like angle 60. The shot will go up, and then come down very steeply. The shot needs to be aligned closer to 90 degrees when it hits. If there was no wind, it would need to closer to 60 degrees when it hits.


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pf4ugc4
post Mar 19 2009, 04:08 AM
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i see. and in terms of timing, how much difference would that make? assume the wind 0 shot with 60 was 2.5 seconds, could u guesstimate what the new timing would be? (basically, does the shot need to spend more or less time on air before hit?)
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PUTOOOOO
post Mar 19 2009, 05:22 PM
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this is how I view trico's shot 2
its not about timing but about alignment
lets say 60 2.8 = 1 screen then its something like 2.5 seconds and hits it about a 320 degree angle

then compare to 2 screen is 37 3.7 and it hits the target at around 2.3ish seconds with an angle of around 280 angle
when i say angle it means the angle of the cabbages.
this also kinda shows why trico and fork/timing wind charts differ.
and this would also apply to mezz's example on wind 24

Ex) 60 full screen with wind 24 <<<.
for a turtle fork its fixed timing and would change around 9 angles
but for a trico it would change 10 or 11 angles with the shot being around 3.05 or a bit more when in wind 0 angle 50 3 bar is a perfect spin and since the wind is perfectly horizontal it should not lower the air time . but since trico's shot 2 would make contact with the target with a relatively higher angle more power would be required compared to wind 0 power.

so to answer your question whenever you go further in your shots you are most likely steadily decreasing the timing and viceversa.


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post Mar 19 2009, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 19 2009, 03:08 AM) *

i see. and in terms of timing, how much difference would that make? assume the wind 0 shot with 60 was 2.5 seconds, could u guesstimate what the new timing would be? (basically, does the shot need to spend more or less time on air before hit?)

PUTOOOOO is correct.
With wind against, it needs to rotate longer so it needs more time.
Wind with the shot means you need less rotation time.
I'm not sure what the exact timing difference per degree rotation is though.


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Longleaf
post Mar 19 2009, 06:17 PM
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So fixed timing could be a relatively accurate, but slow, way of say...using mage? I know my turtle pretty well without timing, so I'll skip that. But mage forks are timed exactly like trico shot 2/turtle forks and SS, right? If this is the case, how does a timing method contribute to elevation shots?

I mean, really. If a bigfoot has bunged you about -300 pixels and is at about a distance of 150 pixels, wouldn't this interfere with the whole idea of timing due to angle availability and landmass left in your shot?
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PUTOOOOO
post Mar 19 2009, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 18 2009, 01:46 AM) *



----------------Those are the main types, the following are rather useless or just unheard of----------------------





- Distance-based Timing = uses different fixed timings depending on different distances; angle and power are automatically altered by wind, elevation, tornadoes. Example, Trico shot 2. This formula essentially tells you the angle and power that you need for your shot to have its wind 0 timing based on the distance that your target is at.
(comments on this formula: complicated and time-consuming, yet it has the potential to have great precision. A common problem is again generalizing a group of angles and powers into one wind chart)






On the contrary, distance-based Timing is extremely important for fork/tb tornadoes aswell with trico nados and trico mirror
and as well as any elevation forks


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post Mar 19 2009, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE(Longleaf @ Mar 19 2009, 06:17 PM) *

how does a timing method contribute to elevation shots?








refer to your own landmarks and look at the measurings


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Longleaf
post Mar 19 2009, 06:27 PM
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I still need my question about mage answered. ._.
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PUTOOOOO
post Mar 19 2009, 06:33 PM
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mage are fixed timing but just different timing with much more available shots compared to a turtles total of 6 sets of shots.
some people may not notice this but raon also forks but the center bullet just makes it more unnoticeable.
I don't think its related to trico's shot 2


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post Mar 19 2009, 06:41 PM
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Yeah, I already discovered the maximum sets/spins of forks with Kalsiddon, Raon, and Turtle.

Kalsiddon: Maximum 4 Spin Fork (0 elevation)
Raon: Maximum 14 Spin Fork (0 elevation)
Turtle: 6 Spin Fork (At any elevation, then turtle connects. I did not include the extra seventh spin the water spouts execute before connection. This is due to that this spin will not fork the opponent.)

Now I just need Mage, which is difficult as hell.
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post Mar 19 2009, 06:50 PM
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well if you understand the whole concept then I dont see why you're having a hard time with mage since it's no different.


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