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PUTOOOOO
post Mar 30 2009, 08:28 PM
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so are you suggesting that the the guy is considered a formula player right after his first shot he made in his entire life?


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Htd
post Mar 30 2009, 09:01 PM
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QUOTE(PUTOOOOO @ Mar 30 2009, 08:28 PM) *

so are you suggesting that the the guy is considered a formula player right after his first shot he made in his entire life?

No but what is it he remembered to hit someone? Just a mental note or formula?
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pf4ugc4
post Mar 30 2009, 09:04 PM
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right. the second shot would be (in theory, or as u said it, technically) a formulated shot, yes. lets say the first shot was 70 2.8. then target moves, wind goes up +1, elevation increased, any changes you want. if he is still shooting with 70 2.8 as a reference (including, for example, if he goes to 65 and lowers 0.03 power per angle) then yeah, form (in theory). if he moves, changes angle to wat happens to be 57, shoots a random power of 2.45, feel (in theory). thats why i said previously that feel and form are used to describe individual shots, not the players themselves but their shots. i cannot be feel. my shot is. i cannot be formula. my shot is. its a misconception that we all fall to--describing players as feel or form, when its our shots that are described that way, and its our shots that describe us (in other words, some shots are feel some shots are form. if our shots describe us, we're all hybrids. but when it comes to describing our shots, most of us use formulated shots [basic or advanced] more than feel shots)

now in practice, this player would be considered a feel player because he is learning as the game evolves and he is not bringing outside knowledge into the game. the -in practice- clause is what everyone already knows. the -in theory- clause is the "by the book" distinction. i hope most people can agree to this.
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PUTOOOOO
post Mar 30 2009, 09:33 PM
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mmmm even though if its technically true(according to your definition). I think there has to be at least be standard of what is considered feel. like a feel player would be 20% form ( landmarks) and 80% feel ( elevation , wind adjustments).

I just cant think of landmarks as a formula imo.
because its not like there is an equation there which is what a formula is. feel is math but just an guesstimation an adjustment. while imo landmarks is neither feel nor formula. no different from knowing what black and white is( besides the type of wave length and photon that is being absorbed and reflected)

a formula is a symbiotic way to express a pattern .

maybe if you think of 20 parts as full screen being on 20th part then 90 - 20 = 70 and then every half screen away that's 0.075 addition thus getting 2.85 + 0.75(2) getting 70 3.0 then that's a formula.
being 90-x=A x= part per screen , A = new angle


but i never think of it like that but simply a landmark
its only a formula if you use it to find the landmark you have no clue about imo.


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BaAaZoOoKaAa
post Mar 31 2009, 12:54 AM
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yeah i agree there is some extentbut a player plays the way he wants to. its ur own preference to use feel or formula. i agree with efrain also but i think there should be another word for it. wat adrian's saying i agree is considered feel. but for what efrain's saying it should be called like pure feel.

because wat adrians saying is you pretty much almost do "feel" the shot when you shoot. i can easily tell when my shot is overpowered right when it leaves my bot. that is feel because you literally get a feeling of the shot (probably thru experience).

i understand what efraibs saying and i think it should be edited to pure feel instead of just feel alone.

i also agree that this shouldnt be another feel vs formula thread like many of the other interesting ones posted everywhere.

well thats my opinion (just as this thread is all opinion based on the contributing posters). there will always be this argument..but cmon guys lets just play for fun. however you want to play is your choice and you can think w/e you want (i choose like 35% feel 65% form but 100% memory in 1v1). as lomg as nobody aimbots, this topic of feel vs. form shouldnt even matter.

again, thats just my opinion
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freakOmani
post Apr 5 2009, 01:05 AM
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I think PUTO has the best understanding of what feel means... which I agree with completely because I'm a trico player. I have a good zero-wind foundation, but when it comes to different elevations and far distances (especially when I play random maps), I don't have a precise way to figure out my rotation. Instead, I imagine the spin and fire accordingly. If I miss, then I make the adjustments needed to correct my shot... that doesn't necessarily make me a formula player. It's an adjustment based on how my last shot rotated and the area it hit.
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Htd
post Apr 5 2009, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE(freakOmani @ Apr 5 2009, 01:05 AM) *

I think PUTO has the best understanding of what feel means... which I agree with completely because I'm a trico player. I have a good zero-wind foundation, but when it comes to different elevations and far distances (especially when I play random maps), I don't have a precise way to figure out my rotation. Instead, I imagine the spin and fire accordingly. If I miss, then I make the adjustments needed to correct my shot... that doesn't necessarily make me a formula player. It's an adjustment based on how my last shot rotated and the area it hit.

You use 0 wind landmarks. You're a formula player. No argument here.


~To efrain. I'm assuming angle breaking and bunging would be under micro or macro lol?
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pf4ugc4
post Apr 5 2009, 12:28 PM
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yeah freak0mani, htd is right. if u use wind 0 landmarks at all (accurate or inaccurate doesnt matter) u can only be a feel player in practice, cuz in theory if u use those landmarks for your shots then its no longer feel but formula.

now, good question htd.

angle breaking is an example of good micro, but it can also be part of your macro. if you're in a 1vs1 for example, and u must kill his angle or u die, thats a micromanagement decision. however, if ur in a 3vs3, trying to same time the other team, but u must stall the sweep round a little longer, u should rape angle in order to gain some extra time for the sweep. that would be a great level of macro, while at the same time being a micro decision since u raped his angle to avoid getting shot (or keep one of your mates from being shot). notice the difference between micro and macro in this example; micro affects directly only u (but of course all micro decisions also have an indirect effect on the overall macro control of the game), whereas macro deals with the overall control of the match.

bunging is probably just micro. bunging is usually the faster way to end an opponent than actually killing him, so it is an individual decision at the micro level. but of course u should be well aware of what the aftermath of bunging that person will be--all micro decisions affect the macro of the game. for example, if ur in score 2vs2 and u bunge too fast, that person will respawn and your team will probably get same time'd. so while bunging is at the individual level, it will have effects on the macromanagement of the game.

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PUTOOOOO
post Apr 5 2009, 12:29 PM
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That doesn't mean hes not a feel player. It's like grouping him with the guys that use wind charts to aim every shot. we can keep debating about 0 wind not being a landmark but our definition of formula is completely different as I explained the land marks are only formulas if they are found through an equation. but its just neither feel or formula but memory for landmarks.


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Htd
post Apr 5 2009, 05:00 PM
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QUOTE(PUTOOOOO @ Apr 5 2009, 12:29 PM) *

That doesn't mean hes not a feel player. It's like grouping him with the guys that use wind charts to aim every shot. we can keep debating about 0 wind not being a landmark but our definition of formula is completely different as I explained the land marks are only formulas if they are found through an equation. but its just neither feel or formula but memory for landmarks.

There is no way anyone can be decent at trico and not know some kind of factors or nulls for certain angles. When trico players say they're feel...it's nonsense. I don't know whats so bad about being labeled a form player...
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PUTOOOOO
post Apr 5 2009, 05:49 PM
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I'm just not convinced on this labeling on what is a form player. I never said it was a bad thing except for those guys that take forever to shoot with a calculator + windchart beside him.


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BaAaZoOoKaAa
post Apr 6 2009, 01:16 AM
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ive actually been playing feel trico gba and im doing pretty good. u can label me as a feel player, but i dont really do much formula anymore because i know the bot by now in my head (not like memorized factors).. all i know is that the power has to be like 2.75 for example. i completely guess the angle after [i]feeling[/] my distance from the enemy. i admit i do measure when i have enough time or when its
an important shot so i guess im labeled as a formula player after all of this. i also record shots for my trico formula for my guild whenever i can so that def. labels me as a formula player i guess cuz i probably subconsciously memorize some shots.

also just a suggestion: since ur so persistent on your opinion about feel vs form, shouldnt u classify them as different types of form players? adrian probably made the best point, which is that there is a difference between those who feel their formula and those who use rulers, calculators, and charts that get nowhere?

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also i think you should add terms that people use in game (Kst, GG, powerbomb, force)

like:
KST: method of killing the opponents in a row before they can spawn and use their extra life
GG: Good Game
powerbomb: killing enemy with high power shots like turtle skybomb
force: forcing a suicide from enemy team to prevent KST

.. thats the kind of terminology you hear more often
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pf4ugc4
post Apr 7 2009, 05:32 AM
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as far as your suggestions go, kst, force, and powerbomb all seem to be individual strategies or micro moves in and of themselves so i didnt specify strategy types in the terms list but soon i think i'll make their own topic (like one for score, etc). and gg is really just something koreans say at the end of a game, regardless of whether it was a good game or a bad game. in fact, not saying gg is offensive. they dont say gg at a crucial point of the game, nor do they say it only when it was a very close game, they just say it out of respect kinda thing...

and i didnt make any kind of distinction between the extent to which a player formulates because in theory its black and white, you either form or you feel. in practice there may be a gray aera, but how could i possibly measure it? from 1 - 10? thats up to each player to make himself belief lol not me. wind chart, calculator, watever u want, thats how the game is played. if u refuse to admit that most of your shots have a certain % of form in them thats your own conceit
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PUTOOOOO
post Apr 7 2009, 05:43 PM
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If it was "black and white" there wouldn't even be a discussion. I can say there are players that don't formula at all but you seem to think memorizing is formulating.


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pf4ugc4
post Apr 9 2009, 05:07 PM
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i dont seem to think so, i do think so. u dont understand the meaning of the word formula in its broadest terms. lets stop this arguing back and forth. not the place for it here.
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BaAaZoOoKaAa
post Apr 11 2009, 01:06 PM
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i think killing at the same time has pretty much become a universal strategy almost similar to bunging or using true angles. not many people used it in the past, but now it's pretty rare to play a guildwar and not attempt same time or get same timed.
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CapnKJ2
post Apr 14 2009, 04:02 PM
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This is crap:

Feel- Certainly the most debated word of all. The word FEEL really originated at the very beginning of gunbound gaming, from korean gb. The word attempts to explain the relationship between the mouse and the hand--literally. With Feel, the hand moves the mouse until it feels right. In all honestly, FEEL = GUESSING. If you say you play by feel, that literally means you guess every shot! whether that guessing is blind or educated, thats something else. Perhaps we can agree to use the word FEEL as a replacement of EDUCATED GUESSING. But FEEL is (in its most literal form) by no means related to MEMORIZING. Saying that you used feel from a 70 3.0 shot is NOT FEEL!

C'mon...Feel is more than an educated guess. It borders on the subconcious and psychic at times and is much more than you make it sound. It is the way the game was intended to be played and the only true talent lies in Feel. Now I'm sounding biased, but that's okay. I am.

Most of the rest of this post is pretty well written IMO.


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pf4ugc4
post Apr 15 2009, 11:16 PM
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dont take this the wrong way, but who are you to judge that "feel" was the way the game was meant to be played?

if that is the case, can you explain why is physics and geometry applicable to the game? why would applying those concepts into formulated shots not be deemed worthy of your respect?

maybe you should take a look at other gunbound servers. formula players exist in all. especially chinese, so many forms out there...talent doesnt lie in either feel or form anyway. talent is knowing the game, and how to play it. i can hardly name more than a handful of people that do so.
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Tendulkar
post Apr 16 2009, 01:34 AM
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I propose a theory of hybrids. Neither form and neither feel players. Most of us who play GB are hybrids. The fact is that some are better than others. There is a white and black area, and then you have gray....in which most of us belong. All depends on how farther an individual has progressed in this "gray" area. I still believe that the best players out there are all hybrids.....



Name the people who have talent in the game Efrain....Lets see your list mate.
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pf4ugc4
post Apr 16 2009, 08:21 PM
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nah thats not what this topic is about. and im ok with your hybrid theory, except that form/feel really describe individual shots, not the players themselves. im not "form" and ur not "feel", but our shots are either/or. a player can be a hybrid, one turn he might use feel and the next form, no questioning that. but a shot is black or white; you either guess it based only on experience/gut feeling (feel), or you use an equation that points you in the direction of the result (form). agree?
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