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> The old raon vs. the new raon
ybom
post Nov 26 2007, 09:58 PM
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This is great! It really shows that the new raon, albeit nerfed, has turned into a full on manipulation bot that requires, believe it or not, a ton more skill. Learning to properly gauge splits and identifying new pit opportunities are a must now where they were just showing off before.

EDIT: debate about raon split from-
http://www.gbgl-hq.com/forum/index.php?sho...c=2749&st=0

-pap


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ProfessorPap
post Nov 26 2007, 10:19 PM
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QUOTE(ybom @ Nov 26 2007, 10:58 PM) *

This is great! It really shows that the new raon, albeit nerfed, has turned into a full on manipulation bot that requires, believe it or not, a ton more skill. Learning to properly gauge splits and identifying new pit opportunities are a must now where they were just showing off before.

exactly... it's not the bot anymore that can kill you with a single dual and a shot two, it's a bot that has to survive by ingenuity and tricks. and like grub, you can afford to waste few if any shots.

btw john, here is the video posted over at ijji forums if you want to see how people react:
http://forums.ijji.com/showthread.php?t=114081

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Gio
post Nov 27 2007, 11:34 AM
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sry but I couldn't disagree more ybom

it requires tons less skill...heck, I always used those techniques and they were a lot harder to use when the babys wouldn't walk right away...I still say it got nerfed


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7slayer7
post Nov 27 2007, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE(ZecaWylde @ Nov 27 2007, 10:34 AM) *

sry but I couldn't disagree more ybom

it requires tons less skill...heck, I always used those techniques and they were a lot harder to use when the babys wouldn't walk right away...I still say it got nerfed


agreed 100%

i took more precision to get damage before...


but i guess that makes me and you close-minded fools, doesn't it Zec?


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ProfessorPap
post Nov 27 2007, 10:48 PM
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the point is, you can't get nearly that kind of damage anymore, so raon doesn't take quite the high level of precision that it used to... it's more of an endurance test now.

half or more of the other bots in the game you lose to badly in a damage race, so you have to make all the right decisions and play very good defense to win across a lot more turns than it used to take.

some bots like mage and lightning it's almost impossible to beat with the new raon, anyway. and lots of times you hit both babies on an enemy and you don't even do 200 freaking damage. ask yourself if the walking first turn thing was really worth it, then.
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7slayer7
post Nov 27 2007, 11:17 PM
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QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 27 2007, 09:48 PM) *

ask yourself if the walking first turn thing was really worth it, then.


that's the point.

its not.


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ProfessorPap
post Nov 28 2007, 12:55 AM
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then it's not an 'easy' bot then, is it?
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ybom
post Nov 28 2007, 01:27 AM
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If you want something easy, get a Staples button. That was easy.

Pap hit it on the head. I really get frustrated when people prove themselves wrong after setting up a strawman in my place and prove it wrong, pretending to prove me wrong. You could've avoided all of that by leaving out the "close-minded" comment, jerk(s).

And my opinion is biased! Pap can verify I don't play as well as I used to! Why would you listen to my words, since I'm not pro anymore?


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7slayer7
post Nov 28 2007, 03:16 AM
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QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 27 2007, 11:55 PM) *

then it's not an 'easy' bot then, is it?


never was.

but now, dealing damage is easier-- but dealing a LOT of damage is harder.

QUOTE(ybom @ Nov 28 2007, 12:27 AM) *

You could've avoided all of that by leaving out the "close-minded" comment, jerk(s).


the fuck are you taking about? i was serious. The game changed, Zec and I refused to...



QUOTE(ybom @ Nov 28 2007, 12:27 AM) *

And my opinion is biased! Pap can verify I don't play as well as I used to! Why would you listen to my words, since I'm not pro anymore?


you severely let your bias show when you said it required more skill. I think it would be more correct to say that it requires different skill. and even then, not so much at the bot as in raw strategy...

but what the hell do i know, im biased. lipssealed.gif


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ProfessorPap
post Nov 28 2007, 03:29 AM
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this is like arguing over which is more authentic, the purest-bred arctic husky or a wolf.

the only thing worth concluding is that neither the old raon nor the new raon is easy. the old raon had greater chances of doing massive damage, while the new raon has greater chances of doing quick but mediocre damage.

and maybe you forgot that lots of us were incredibly offended by the new raon. we wanted nothing to do with it and nothing to do with the current GB. but we weren't given much of a choice now, were we?
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7slayer7
post Nov 28 2007, 11:49 AM
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QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 28 2007, 02:29 AM) *

the only thing worth concluding is that neither the old raon nor the new raon is easy. the old raon had greater chances of doing massive damage, while the new raon has greater chances of doing quick but mediocre damage.


we're not arguing here at all, you just restated what i said. (so i agree completely, lol)

QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 28 2007, 02:29 AM) *

and maybe you forgot that lots of us were incredibly offended by the new raon. we wanted nothing to do with it and nothing to do with the current GB. but we weren't given much of a choice now, were we?


we all had two choices: Move on, or adapt. It would seem that Zeca and I chose the former, whilst Raoners chose the latter.


im not saying that one choice is better than the other... so theres really no argument here...

QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 28 2007, 02:29 AM) *

this is like arguing over which is more authentic, the purest-bred arctic husky or a wolf.


more authientic? *shrugs* but the wolf is def gonna be smarter, lol (and no there's no parallel between that and the Raon 'argument'....)


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Gio
post Nov 28 2007, 12:19 PM
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What the fuck are you guys talking about this new raon being harder to use than the older one? I did play with the new one to see what it could do, it was too easy....

Dual+ nowadays = 100% guaranteed angle rape if you have idea what you are doing, and the damage isnt that bad because you still can kill almost any bot in 2 duals (it deals more damage when you don't sg, and it got easier to kill ice because of the angle rape)

But I'm guessing what happened is: I played with another aproach to Raon, using more shot 1 than 2...shot 1 became a little more usable with the babys walking on the same turn, and when you are better at bungee you know how to use that.


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ybom
post Nov 28 2007, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE(ZecaWylde @ Nov 28 2007, 01:19 PM) *

What the fuck are you guys talking about this new raon being harder to use than the older one? I did play with the new one to see what it could do, it was too easy....

I'm not gonna talk anymore since I know nothing and I never knew anything. Too easy my ass, that's an opinion. A fact would be more along the lines of proving that frog can always beat boomer. Raon has turned into a frog, damage wise, whereas before you had a chance vs boomer. Since boomer is popular, raon is infinitely harder, to the point you cannot win with 2 raon vs 2 boomer with each having the same skill level. Unfortunately, raon is always going to be harder now, statistically, until you can prove that turtle is more popular than boomer.

QUOTE
Dual+ nowadays = 100% guaranteed angle rape if you have idea what you are doing, and the damage isnt that bad because you still can kill almost any bot in 2 duals (it deals more damage when you don't sg, and it got easier to kill ice because of the angle rape)

Fact. Dual+ is a requirement now. I stated that.

QUOTE
But I'm guessing what happened is: I played with another aproach to Raon, using more shot 1 than 2...shot 1 became a little more usable with the babys walking on the same turn, and when you are better at bungee you know how to use that.

Fact. Unless you spam babies.

You also left out the fact that shot 1 seems to eat more land now than before. Or am I the only one to notice that?


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ANBU
post Nov 28 2007, 01:45 PM
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I'll sum this whole thing up..^
Old Raon requires more skill because you need the babies to be closer.
New Raon requires more skill because it's shot two is weaker, thus you have to survive longer.

In my opinion Raon has been nerfed cuz the damage reduction is just too big.
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RaonFlavor
post Nov 28 2007, 04:23 PM
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I'm going to say that both sides are wrong. The amount of skill required by Raon users is the same as it was before. The only "significant" difference would be the babies crawling on the first turn, and the amount of damage you do. Yes i'm aware of the fucking retards out there with their, "RAON IS CHEAP ITS SHOTS CRAWL". The truth of the matter is, if I was playing with a normal bot, i'd just hit you head on, so what's the difference? Hell, they shouldn't be bitching at all, since they have an opportunity to dodge a large amount just by moving, or shooting the babies that don't crawl to them. The whole, "babies used to have to be closer" argument is another instance of complete unadulterated bullshit. Just because the shot moves on the first turn, doesn't mean I can afford to have a greater spread on my shot, seeing as how the crawl distance was nerfed significantly also.

" I always used those techniques and they were a lot harder to use when the babys wouldn't walk right away...I still say it got nerfed."

Specify which techniques so I won't call you a liar on account that some of those weren't even possible with the old raon.

Flat out, if you think that the new Raon is cheap/cheaper, or requires less skill than the old Raon, you're more full of shit than my septic tank. That isn't bias or opinion, that's fucking fact.


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Toneh
post Nov 28 2007, 04:54 PM
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Guys, guys.

I'd be tempted to say Raon got nerfed...okay, they crawl on first turn. So what, whoopdeedoo, 90% of GB players were too stupid to move the fuck out anyway. Control? Controlling is actually harder than before. You have to land the mines so they are attracted to give a sense of danger but do not walk in the enemy for obvious reasons. Before, you just had to shoot and not core.

No more welcoming committees against hoary Nak tappers. In fact, welcoming committees are so restricted now that you can only use them when isolated from the masses and having something land close enough so they don't split and far enough to not get them on your ass.

No more assisting. Your babies will do damage. You can't have two raon trap the fuck out of some loser then have a turtle bomb them for an instant kill. Your babies will walk. Your babies will hole the dude. Your babies will fuck everything up.

Shotgunning is about useless. Just lob them, it'll do the same thing.

Kamikazi is useless. No more ubercool Jap attacks. Just lob them.

They deal less damage. Much less damage. Well isn't that shit? I can't kill stuff in a dual and a half now. So I have to survive while some fucking turtle 2 screens away pounds my ass for 550 a piece.

Old Raon is superior to new Raon close-range. New Raon equals old Raon long-range, or barely pwns it.

Dual+ was more useful with the old Raon. Yes, MORE. With 1->2, you'd dig them with 1 and nick their angle and they'd stick in the middle of the hole doing nothing because of the babies. If they walked into one their angle was gone. More often than not now the babies will give an angle by striking in the middle of the hole, so the enemy gets a slant to pound your ass. 2->1 was better with the old Raon because it kicked way more ass. I remember pulling 600 2->1s with thor.

So I proved the new Raon sucks, or at the very least, isn't as good. What do I do? I still play it (when I do play). Unlike some of you crybabies, I'm conscious my tears won't fix my favourite bot. So instead of uselessly crying, I'm adapting. No, I don't win as much. Yes, my bouncing skills are useless. But I play Raon to piss people off and it still does the job nicely.

My advice : suck it up, princesses.

QUOTE
Specify which techniques so I won't call you a liar on account that some of those weren't even possible with the old raon.

Slip and bounce. Them walking gives so much leash to miss now. Obviously.


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7slayer7
post Nov 28 2007, 08:52 PM
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QUOTE(RaonFlavor @ Nov 28 2007, 03:23 PM) *

Specify which techniques so I won't call you a liar on account that some of those weren't even possible with the old raon.

come across as a self-important asshole much? I mean Jesus tapdancing Christ we're having a pleasant debate as to our personal assessments of the current raon vs. the old raon and you throw THIS shit out here.

(bravo sire, your condor will assuredly win people over to your school of thought! smile18yh7.gif)


QUOTE(RaonFlavor @ Nov 28 2007, 03:23 PM) *

Flat out, if you think that the new Raon is cheap/cheaper, or requires less skill than the old Raon, you're more full of shit than my septic tank.

Opinion.


QUOTE(RaonFlavor @ Nov 28 2007, 03:23 PM) *

That isn't bias or opinion, that's fucking fact.

Im going to quote YOU in response to this particular line.

QUOTE(RaonFlavor @ Nov 28 2007, 03:23 PM) *

you're more full of shit than my septic tank.


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I mean good God, you act like he was insulting your religion or something. If someone holds the opinion that a certain bot is cheap/cheaper that's well within their rights. It, however, is notably not within your rights to state that your opinion on the matter is of paramount importance and proceed to insult anyone who holds an opinion contrary to your own.

Good day sir.


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ProfessorPap
post Nov 28 2007, 11:26 PM
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Take that, you silly ox.
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i think you need to understand, jordan, that playing a respectable bot and having loads of people disrespect you out of ignorance on a regular basis can make some of us a little touchy.

i mean, i know you understand this concept, but it's not something you actually have to go through every time you fire up GB.

john just put an assload of work into making a fantastic video. this thread does not merit being turned into a debate about raon IMO.
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7slayer7
post Nov 29 2007, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE(ProfessorPap @ Nov 28 2007, 10:26 PM) *

i think you need to understand, jordan, that playing a respectable bot and having loads of people disrespect you out of ignorance on a regular basis can make some of us a little touchy.


we aren't those people.

not everyone that dislikes the current raon is ignorant as to the nuances of the current raon...


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xDemonessx
post Nov 29 2007, 03:19 AM
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holy poop what ever happened to constructive criticism? can no one take anyone elses honest opinion anymore?


i mean honestly, you cant expect everyone to be like LOL WOW PRO. you are gonna get those few people who may actually know what the fuck you/they are talking about, and they are going to judge accordingly.

?_?

in any case,

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