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> Lightning Problems, Anyone have advice?
MagiK
post Apr 7 2007, 12:40 AM
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Edit: Didn't put this in the lightning guides section because it's not a guide, but feel free to move it

Whenever I play lightning, I seem to not struggle against things like armor/turtle, but what should I be looking to do when up against something that can dish out 500+ on a turn without any dependence on angle and land conditions?

In particular, I seem to have the biggest issues against boomer and trico.

IMPORTANT: let's assume that this is a good player, who doesn't choke up on mid-range shots.

I'll start with something like a dual+, and do about 400 dmg
Then boomer will fire out an ss/dual for 450-550
Then I move out of the way, do a shot 1 (since I can't deal the 500-550 needed to finish). He is down to the point where I can kill next turn.
But, he then has the chance to dual and kill me (and does so fairly often)

How does one manage delay in this situation? Should I play small ball with a shot 1/2 and move around hoping for a miss that I can capitalize off of?

This issue rises up in 1v1 situations and in 2v2 score where we try to kill at the same time, but I cannot kill fast enough, and thus the other guy drops

Thanks
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ANBU
post Apr 7 2007, 08:48 AM
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You can either a) keep using shot 1 or 2 and kill his elevation and hope he misses, b) don't pick lightning in a 1v1 or a 2v2 : s
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hellic
post Apr 7 2007, 12:35 PM
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First of all, Boomer, or any other mobile for that matter, can't use SS on the second turn.

I recommend attempting to angle rape or push the opponent into a deep hole when you use Lightning. Granted, it may be difficult to do to Boomer, but changing elevation might mess up the Boomer's shot.

Even a "good player" can't hit every shot, so screwing with elevation is beneficial to you. In addition, you should move around every turn to force the opponent to adjust his or her shot and increase the possibility of fucking up.

You can never win solely based on damage (at least against Boomers, Turtles, Tricos, etc.) so angle raping and taking advantage of delay are your best options.


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MagiK
post Apr 7 2007, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE(hellic @ Apr 7 2007, 01:35 PM) *

First of all, boomer, or any other mobile for that matter, can't use SS on the second turn.

I recommend attempting to angle rape or push the opponent into a deep hole when you use Lightning. Granted, it may be difficult to do to Boomer, but changing elevation might mess up the Boomer's shot.

Even a "good player" can't hit every shot, so screwing with elevation is beneficial to you. In addition, you should move around every turn to force the opponent to adjust his or her shot and increase the possibility of fucking up.

You can never win solely based on damage (at least against Boomers, Turtles, Tricos, etc.) so angle raping and taking advantage of delay are your best options.



Oops, I forgot that you can't use ss early on anymore. Wow I need to keep up with things.
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A-17
post Apr 28 2007, 08:00 PM
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The ONLY way you can lose to a Boomer or trico 1v1, is if the opponent is REALLY good or you jsut miss and do splash dmgs. Lightning is VERY strong (regarding the fact that it does less dmg on creature bots), and its delay is extrmely low. The Not-so-recent update has made lightning's shot 1 and 2 atk's strength increase by 10-20% i believe. Considering the fact its shot 1 delay is the same as boome's, as well has the lowest shot 2 delay, there' shouldn't be any way you could lose.

ALSO, you're on a Shield. Boomer = Hit/ Impact.
Hit/Impact > Shield
ALSO, you're on a Electric Type. Boomer = Bionic/ Creature.
Electric < Bionic/ Creature.
I'm sure everyone knows this. Only that nerfed update makes your lightning able to withstand bots liek Boomer, Otherwise you'd lose every time, becasue you have bot disadvantage.
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hellic
post Apr 28 2007, 08:29 PM
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Suppose a Lightning is fighting a Turtle.

Turtle goes first and duals for 500+ damage. Lightning has 500 life left. Lightning uses shot 2 to outdelay and deals 220 damage. Lightning goes again and uses shot 1 for 180 damage. Turtle has 460 health left. Turtle duals, 500+ damage again. Lightning dies. Turtle wins. GG.

Lightning goes first and uses shot 2 to deal 220 damage. Turtle has 740 life left. Turtle counters with a Dual for 500+ damage. Lightning has 500 health left. Lightning uses shot 1 twice in a row, dealing a total of 360 damage. Turtle has 280 life left. Turtle duals for 500+ damage. Lightning dies. Turtle wins. GG.

Assuming, of course, everyone aimbots.


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Shere
post Apr 28 2007, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE(hellic @ Apr 28 2007, 10:29 PM) *

Suppose a Lightning is fighting a Turtle.

Turtle goes first and duals for 500+ damage. Lightning has 500 life left. Lightning uses shot 2 to outdelay and deals 220 damage. Lightning goes again and uses shot 1 for 180 damage. Turtle has 460 health left. Turtle duals, 500+ damage again. Lightning dies. Turtle wins. GG.

Lightning goes first and uses shot 2 to deal 220 damage. Turtle has 740 life left. Turtle counters with a Dual for 500+ damage. Lightning has 500 health left. Lightning uses shot 1 twice in a row, dealing a total of 360 damage. Turtle has 280 life left. Turtle duals for 500+ damage. Lightning dies. Turtle wins. GG.

Assuming, of course, everyone aimbots.

you can out-delay pretty much any mobile that duals on the first turn 3 times when you're in a lightning. I can do it with my bigfoot and I know for a fact lightning has less delay. You could probably dual+, then use a shot 1, and just barely beat their delay and get in a dual shot 2 and maybe finish the job.


Also while I'm on the topic, since I started playing again, why does everyone dual on the first turn now? It ultimately fucks them over in the long run and 90% of the time they miss. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't use any items on your first turn, even if you know you'll hit.


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1nsanemofo
post Apr 28 2007, 09:29 PM
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The logic behind it is with WC/NAs increased damages, "no turning" people has become the focus of the game, it started with the better players who would actually hit their duals killing people after 1 turn/no turns, and then it spread to just about everyone, including everyone who sucks, and it kills themself because they can't hit the dual


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hellic
post Apr 29 2007, 10:00 AM
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QUOTE(Shere @ Apr 28 2007, 10:12 PM) *

you can out-delay pretty much any mobile that duals on the first turn 3 times when you're in a lightning. I can do it with my bigfoot and I know for a fact lightning has less delay. You could probably dual+, then use a shot 1, and just barely beat their delay and get in a dual shot 2 and maybe finish the job.
No one's ever done that to me so I wouldn't know :P

QUOTE(Shere @ Apr 28 2007, 10:12 PM) *

Also while I'm on the topic, since I started playing again, why does everyone dual on the first turn now? It ultimately fucks them over in the long run and 90% of the time they miss. I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't use any items on your first turn, even if you know you'll hit.
I always Dual+ the first turn if I can. Why? Well, the maximum number of turns anyone get from outdelaying me is one (even if the opponent's first shot is shot 1).

For example, suppose I'm Turtle. My first shot is a Dual+. One enemy uses shot 1. The other uses shot 2. The last one duals.
CODE

Start of game       After first turn
Delay List:         Delay List:
Me                  Enemy                    
Enemy               Ally
Ally                Enemy
Enemy               Ally
Ally                Me                        
Enemy               Enemy

Once the second turn begins, I can't get skipped anymore.


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A-17
post May 20 2007, 11:45 AM
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Im suddnely Lost..
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xDemonessx
post May 20 2007, 02:45 PM
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as far as armor/turtle goes, once you get the feel for lightning it should be second nature to shot 2 and bunge them into a hole to force them to lose their angle, at least in the second turn. its all delay from then on, i stick to strictly shot 1 and only use shot 2 if they have a roof over them.

boomer/trico is a different story. against pros on those mobiles there isnt much you can do, you can angle the trico and force part of the shot to miss, and maybe with the boomer hook shots as well. in order to win, i think you need all out accuracy+delay+damage. if you keep up the 1000 delay turns using dual plus, and are able to do more then 350 dmg, you should have a good chance of winning. i typically play lightning in a 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 match, and only use it in 1v1s for avatar on jewel games. in a 1v1 with lightning against a seasoned turtle/armor, you should be able to angle/outdelay the enemy if you learn lightning well enough.


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post Jul 5 2007, 05:58 PM
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QUOTE(xDemonessx @ May 20 2007, 04:45 PM) *

...i think you need all out accuracy+delay+damage. ..


Dont forget "luck", i mean Sinds and moon/Disks..

it just reminded me of "dont forget to bring a towel" - Lame, but lol
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GodisaIie
post Jul 6 2007, 10:34 AM
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i never use lightning 1v1, its horribly disadvantaged most of the time,

only time i use lightning is when im master and i set it up no duals, all other items open, meta mine, ss death, tag+

and even then i dont play fairly lol, i get two teles and two bandaids,
then i tele from the side over to the middle so i hav a sht loada turns to weakn em with that nice splash dmg with ligthning till its ss death, then its all nak ;D


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7slayer7
post Jul 6 2007, 12:01 PM
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QUOTE(hellic @ Apr 29 2007, 09:00 AM) *

No one's ever done that to me so I wouldn't know :P


Alex i know for a FACT that i've tripled you off of a dual b4.


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hellic
post Jul 6 2007, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE(7slayer7 @ Jul 6 2007, 01:01 PM) *


Alex i know for a FACT that i've tripled you off of a dual b4.
I don't remember. But we never 1v1 either...


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mezz
post Jul 6 2007, 02:15 PM
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There's one problem with the turtle vs lightning logic, and that's shield. Turtle can only kill half of lightning's health on the first shot if it has some weather help. Lightning will typically win an aimbot 1v1, with just a sliver of health.


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7slayer7
post Jul 6 2007, 10:02 PM
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+30 health every turn FTW!

(and yes alex, we don't 1v1 but when we do play against eachother we usually do so like gentlemen, (without calling in outside aid)


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xDemonessx
post Jul 7 2007, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE(7slayer7 @ Jul 6 2007, 11:02 PM) *

+30 health every turn FTW!

(and yes alex, we don't 1v1 but when we do play against eachother we usually do so like gentlemen, (without calling in outside aid)


Id really love to rely on the shield portion of lightning, but its regen isnt as good as sates, from what i recall. not to mention, as long as you lose that 1hp you are screwed. Not sure how shield works exactly, id like to know. You cant kill with a ranged mage ss on a shield mobile with .01 hp and 10 shield dmg. Even if you pop a striaght up 200 dmg shot, that 1hp will matter.

So how does the shield work to lightnings advantage? I suppose if you had extra delay, and gained the extra +30 shield, that could be less damage. but against an aimbotting turtle? 2 duals and you're screwed. youd have to be damn good to angle that fool and get 450+ dmg in those turns, then pray for the good delay cause the aimbotting turtle will just dig out for probably a half shot for 100 dmg, even 0 dmg, that one shot is enough to gain an angle to core you for 500+. no contest!

Armor is a different story. Killing aimbotting armors is easy...lol.


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Gio
post Jul 7 2007, 03:55 AM
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lightning can easily deal 400+ dmg on a dual+ it it has thor

it can outdelay a turtle enough to screw its angle

really, i think the only reason i never tried to get good with lightning in recent times is because i play random map


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