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Gabe
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ANBU
are all three for shot 1? i can't read that language.
Gabe
Yes, all three of them are for shot 1. Any shot 2 formula you ever see - never ever ever ever use it because you will miss almost every shot you try. This is due to the formula requiring perfectly flat land to hit. Besides, shot 1 formulas are much easier to use and much more flexible. :)
1nsanemofo
agreed, nak is the most feel based bot in the game, no exceptions...all you can do is formula the s1 and work out the s2 shot path to hit
hellic
QUOTE(1nsanemofo @ Jan 13 2007, 11:13 PM) *
agreed, nak is the most feel based bot in the game, no exceptions...all you can do is formula the s1 and work out the s2 shot path (with your aimbot) to hit
Fixed :D
Muggy
I agree with you guys 75%. I came across a shot 2 formula that worked surprising well on a map like marimo. And i found myself hitting over 85% of the time in head/back winds, but for the most part i think feel is best. When i have more time ill post it.
Gabe
Yes but who plays Miramo. :X Random is the only way to go /gg
Muggy
well it can work on any map with very little experience.
Demon
Although I also formulate shot 1 only, some of the very best naks I've seen formulate shot 2 with good accuracy.
CreeDo
yeah, the trick to using any shot 2 formula is pretty easy:

1- Understand that it only applies if the ground is flat.
2- Look at what the ground looks like where the shot will enter the land
3- If the land near the entry point is higher than you, the shot may come up short so add power, if it's lower, it may go long so reduce power.

That really does work. This thinking can be applied when you use an armor/turtle formula with nak shot 2, as long as you have a good sense of the underground curve.

Of course, if you have that sense, why not just use shot 1 formulas? I guess it's just a matter of preference but I find it's faster to measure to a known target than to an unknown patch of land near the target.
ANBU
when it comes to adjusting to wind, can the basic trico wind chart work?
COoOoOoLCat
I dont find these charts that useful because you need to know alot of different angles with nak and you cant just use a bunch of fixed angles if your planning to use shot 2. sometimes you need a certain angle and power to hit and thats the only shot that will hit. If you know naks curve for example for tial wind I use from shot 1 landing spot instead of a shot 2 formula in high winds because it works better and for agianst wind i use shot 2 formula and you dont need to worry about landing spot as much. (Just some tips)
Nighthawkspt
I can formulate shot 2 pretty well
CreeDo
trico windchart is special and is made to control airtime, so it's the last windchart I'd recommend for a nak (or any other bot).

A windchart for the angle/system you're using is best, like if you like angles near 70, a 70 bjsl chart is best. If you're using fixed power like banpao, the banpao charts are best.

In fact almost all the bots can use the same chart, only a few very light shots will be really different, and trico's will be different. Nak can safely use the 60/70/80 bjsl charts available for turtle/armor/mage.
ANBU
QUOTE(CreeDo @ Jan 17 2007, 01:53 PM) *

trico windchart is special and is made to control airtime, so it's the last windchart I'd recommend for a nak (or any other bot).

A windchart for the angle/system you're using is best, like if you like angles near 70, a 70 bjsl chart is best. If you're using fixed power like banpao, the banpao charts are best.

In fact almost all the bots can use the same chart, only a few very light shots will be really different, and trico's will be different. Nak can safely use the 60/70/80 bjsl charts available for turtle/armor/mage.

but if it controls the air time, wouldn't that make the shot enter the same way as if it was 0 wind? Thus it's underground arc won't be changed much :s or im overthinking this. but i'll try it out one day anyways : x
CreeDo
overthinking it... I see what you're getting at, sort of... if there's elevation with a trico shot, I lower angle and reduce power, or raise angle+power, and that 'fixes' it. But making nak's shots have the same airtime won't give them perfect ground entry because the wind affects the curve of the shot...

example: A 0 wind shot might move in a smooth 60 degree curve, enter perfectly flat ground about 40 pixels in front of the enemy, then come back up and hit them. Now imagine there's a hole 40 pixels in front of that enemy. My same shot might enter that hole, fly further underground, and come up too far behind them. So I could reduce power to fix that problem.

Now let's say the hole's still there, and wind is pointing 23 against nak. The entry point of the shot is completely changed, to hit correctly it now will enter the ground only 5 pixels in front of the enemy, drop almost straight down, come almost straight back up, and hit them. So the fact that there's a hole 40 pixels in front of that enemy doesn't matter anymore. So even if I can control the airtime to adjust for holes, I still need to imagine the entry of the shot and it'd be no use to try to control airtime.
ANBU
QUOTE(CreeDo @ Jan 17 2007, 04:48 PM) *

overthinking it... I see what you're getting at, sort of... if there's elevation with a trico shot, I lower angle and reduce power, or raise angle+power, and that 'fixes' it. But making nak's shots have the same airtime won't give them perfect ground entry because the wind affects the curve of the shot...

example: A 0 wind shot might move in a smooth 60 degree curve, enter perfectly flat ground about 40 pixels in front of the enemy, then come back up and hit them. Now imagine there's a hole 40 pixels in front of that enemy. My same shot might enter that hole, fly further underground, and come up too far behind them. So I could reduce power to fix that problem.

Now let's say the hole's still there, and wind is pointing 23 against nak. The entry point of the shot is completely changed, to hit correctly it now will enter the ground only 5 pixels in front of the enemy, drop almost straight down, come almost straight back up, and hit them. So the fact that there's a hole 40 pixels in front of that enemy doesn't matter anymore. So even if I can control the airtime to adjust for holes, I still need to imagine the entry of the shot and it'd be no use to try to control airtime.

true pinch.gif
I don't play much nak so I'll take your word on it :p
(lol in the last 6 months I played it 3 times.)
COoOoOoLCat
QUOTE(CreeDo @ Jan 17 2007, 11:53 AM) *

trico windchart is special and is made to control airtime, so it's the last windchart I'd recommend for a nak (or any other bot).

A windchart for the angle/system you're using is best, like if you like angles near 70, a 70 bjsl chart is best. If you're using fixed power like banpao, the banpao charts are best.

In fact almost all the bots can use the same chart, only a few very light shots will be really different, and trico's will be different. Nak can safely use the 60/70/80 bjsl charts available for turtle/armor/mage.



Trico charts work for mage and and turtle forks
hellic
QUOTE(COoOoOoLCat @ Jan 17 2007, 06:01 PM) *



Trico charts work for mage and and turtle forks
How about the other way around? :P
Demon
I find that the trico charts, turtle fork charts, and mage fork charts aren't interchangeable. The reason turtle and mage forks don't adjust the same way is because mage is affected by wind more strongly than most other bots, including turtle; the angle and power factors will be a bit greater. The reason why turtle fork and trico charts don't work well is more complicated.

Although turtle and trico are affected by wind in the exact same way, that is to say, a blsj chart will work for both bots while applying their respective wind 0 powers, fixed airtime charts will be different. The nuance is in the physical shots. Trico shoots 3 cabbages that do not rotate at a constant velocity in all winds and distances. In downwind, a "perfect spin" lands more vertically than the shot would land in wind 0. This is because downwind works as a gravity modifier, "pulling" the shot downward. The opposite is true in upwinds, where the cabbages might look like they're about to underspin but hit in a tight cluster. Turtle fork trajectories, on the other hand, seem to be affected relatively little by wind. The sin and cosine streams of water move quickly through their vicissitudes, seemingly faster than trico's cabbages.

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I chose exaggerated examples to make things clear.
CreeDo
honestly I think you can switch them. But the trick is to find the right ones to switch... like the trico windchart you use for 1 spin facing <-- will be ok for 1 screen fork and SS with turtle because all 3 shots are pretty near angle 40, so a 40ish windchart applies. But the 2 spin --> charts wouldn't be any use cuz those are made for angles in the 60's, 70's, 80's and they're made for a shot with much different airtime.

I also think that the subtle adjustment of airtime that demon is talking about is probably overrated.

What I mean is, I understand that the basic adjustments of angle and power are completely necessary. What I think he's talking about is that in different winds, the 'angle of approach' is different. Like say a normal spin hits really well in 0 wind when, just 10 pixels before impact, the 3 balls are at a 45 degree angle. Now let's say in strong opposite wind, the shot will be falling onto the enemy's head at a more vertical angle. Therefore, at 10 pixels to impact, the 3 balls would be nicer if they were also at a more vertical angle like, I dunno, 70 degrees.

The difference in airtime between the first example and the second would literally be something like... 1/10th of a second. And if you're a super pro trico you can make that tiny adjustment to make a more perfect core-ass spin. But if you fail to make that adjustment, you still USUALLY get a nice hit, over 250 damage. If the balls drop vertically onto the enemy at a 45 degree angle, two will still hit nicely and one maybe just half-hits you and the ground. It's the difference between 265 and 300 damage prolly.

It gets more important the longer your shooting distance is and the more power you're using, the angle of approach for the 3.7 bar --> spin must be very precise because it's falling fast, and you'd prolly only get 200ish damage if you fail to account for the differences.
XeeD
Nak > Trico / Turtle

Nak: Half useful charts. Useful in a sense when theres enough power to burrow for shot 2, even though the charts are for shot 1. And also against wind when theres enough airtime for both shot 2's to hit. Anyway not convincingly accurate. In other circumstances, the formation of the land is important to determine the power. Like trico, power for nak is much more important than angle in the sense that using a higher power will give you a much better probability of hitting than a right angle. The thickness of land determines the power of burrow.

Turtle / Trico: ...i didn't understand a half of what creedo said after skim-reading it like 7 times = =, but i suppose i get the general jist of the debate. Personally, i don't think that trico 3in1 charts and turtle fork work very well together, means that you should use separate charts for each, but then again my chart for trico differs among every other published chart, so i guess being lazy to work out the factors and power change, i can't specifically comment. MaShin would be the one to ask though.
CreeDo
lol I dunno half of what the fuck I'm trying to say either, no worries.

I think of each 'type' of trico shot as its own special timing shot with its own special windchart. There's the very short single spin facing --> that works up to half a screen.

There's the 2 spin --> shot that has angles and powers that are very very close to a typical 30-part formula like armor's 2.4 formula (except with trico it's like 2.6+). For half screen, Armor would use 75, 2.45... trico uses 76 2.55. Armor uses 60, 2.56 for 1 screen. Trico uses 60, 2.72.

If I use my easy 2.4 windchart with this formula, it 'almost' works. With my cheesy counting method, I just always use wind/2 (.5 wind factor) and then adjust more angles in stronger winds. With this trico 2 spin shot, I can still always use wind/2, but I just add or reduce power to make the hit, and this also makes it a good spin. In almost any opposite or tail wind, the wind factor is about .5 (actually .45). So I sort of 'convert' armor/turtle 2.4 to a trico windchart, but not really.

Then there's the left facing <-- 2 spin shot that's very similar to banpao (71 is 1 screen with this spin, while banpao uses 70). Again I can just use a known banpao windchart and 'convert' the same way, sort of.

But the best example of a true "turtle to trico" conversion is the 1 spin <--- shot.
Turtle ss half screen: 66, 2.0
Trico <--- 1 spin shot: 68. 2.14
Turtle ss one screen: 49, 2.42
Trico <--- 1 spin shot: 46, 2.51

You see how close they are? The exact same windchart will work very well for both. So when I play trico I am very good with 1 spin <--- and just "ok" with other spins :P
A-17
QUOTE(Gabe @ Jan 14 2007, 07:28 PM) *

Yes but who plays Miramo. :X Random is the only way to go ro_emote_gg.gif


I LOVE playing nak on miramo, im fine with random too, only crappy maps for nak (IMO) is Both Stardust maps, Metamine (both), Metropolis (both), I can work with anything esle.
Gio
only crap for nak is stardust b
pf4ugc4
hi again, sorry im like spamming every nak topic, i know i should get a life =/ lol

first of all, the charts...

the 80 chart seems decently good, <- and -> factors are probably accurate, however the null wind and the factors around it dont seem to be correct to me. And also, 80bjsl for shot 1...wow thats so weird =S i would naturally find it inefficient because 1- requires many high angles 2- extreme accuracy cuz it uses higher angles 3- doesnt even reach 1sd lol! i used 75bjsl in my guide

the 70 chart...i hope thats not for shot 1, i think it is for shot 2, or at least lets hope so. =X it just seems quite off for shot 1, but this is a very useful formula ^^ i also have this in my guide

the 60 chart...hmmm u know, i always wished i did a 65bjsl...now im too lazy, but 60 sounds decent. looks accurate too, i should give it a try...the fact that there are no against winds makes me very happy, whoever did this knows wat hes doin...

yes bjsls for nak shot 1 are useful for shot 2, but lemme share somethin with u...O1dWonder and I were like nak brothers, and one day he showed me his full power wind chart. on the against side, it was shot 2 factors, and on the forward wind side, it was shot 1 factors. I thought it was genious! cuz i had spent a shit load of time trying to make my entire full power charts for each shot lol...but the reason he did that is because against shots are VERY hard to predict the curve...forward, easier, not easy, but easier...so yes use bjsls to aid your variety, but dont rely on them because i can tell u right now, they are not always very nice with duals jejeje
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