Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: GB Terminology
GBGL-HQ Forums > Gunbound > Serious Gunbound
pf4ugc4
Gunbound Terminology

This is an effort to define gunbound terminology (words that apply to the game). More especifically, I would like to address certain words that apply to this game are used very loosely, and even create new terminology to use in gb. You don't have to take my word for it, but this is what i understand from years of playing the game.



words related to the game:

Formula- This should be the first word discussed because it sets the parameters for the other terms. A formula is a rule or principle, frequently expressed in algebraic symbols (directly from www.dictionary.com). In other words, a formula is an equation that does not change. Example: wind.0 + wind.number x wind.chart.factor = new.angle . this is a formula, it translates into "multiply the wind by the wind chart factor, and add it to your base angle". get it? a formula is not a wind chart, a formula is the "code" (if you will) with which to crack that wind chart. Now, if a formula is an equation, 70 3.0 = 1sd is also an equation; therefore, something as simple as memorizing that 70 3.0 = 1sd IS A FORMULA. This is because both examples (wind0 x ... as well as 70 3.0=1sd) essentially aid the player at estimating a new shot. Therefore, they are no different. The following statement is void: "I am a feel player because i only use memorized shots to do new shots."

Wind Chart- A circle divided in 8 parts reminiscent of the gunbound wind circle, that includes factors that will indicate how to adjust a basic wind 0 shot to a certain winds. Wind charts may include up to 64 wind directions in total.

Feel- Certainly the most debated word of all. The word FEEL really originated at the very beginning of gunbound gaming, from korean gb. The word attempts to explain the relationship between the mouse and the hand--literally. With Feel, the hand moves the mouse until it feels right. In all honestly, FEEL = GUESSING. If you say you play by feel, that literally means you guess every shot! whether that guessing is blind or educated, thats something else. Perhaps we can agree to use the word FEEL as a replacement of EDUCATED GUESSING. But FEEL is (in its most literal form) by no means related to MEMORIZING. Saying that you used feel from a 70 3.0 shot is NOT FEEL!



words related to the player:

Strategy- A strategy is a deviced plan of how to operate in a particular game. A player or a team should start the game with an already-deviced strategy. Example, if you play a serious 1vs1, a strategy might be "ok first turn i will dual, second turn i will SS, third turn i will dual", or if you are the captain of a 3vs3 team, you must go into the game thinking "ok this game we are going to kill them at the same time." A strategy is not something you device during the game, that's an unprepared change of plans and that is bad.

Accuracy- precision. This has to do with how precise a player is. Saying "I can hit 9/10 times" does not mean you are accurate because hitting or missing a shot depends on how complicated or intricate that specific shot is. Using formulas may increase your accuracy. Accuracy has nothing to do with the other qualities of a player.

Speed- The velocity with which a player moves, aims, and shoots. Speed is very dependent on the mobility qualities of each mobile (i.e. boomer moves fast, turtle moves slow). Regardless, speed takes a lot of practice, much like accuracy. However, speed has nothing to do with accuracy. You can hit nothing an entire game and still considered to be a fast player.
**Players should try to find their balance of accuracy and speed. Accuracy and speed trade off each other; you cant have a 10 : 10 ratio of accuracy and speed. Each player must decide their own ratio.**

Consistency- Consistency has a more broad definition. One, being consistent means that if you hit a target in turn #1, you should be able to hit that same target in turn #10; hitting one time and missing the other means you got lucky, or that you are just not consistent. Two, being consistent means that all your shots should have about the same accuracy; you can't hit an "omg ns" and then "lol wtf was that?". this does not mean you can't miss, but a consistent player is he who does not get lucky in terms of accuracy. This aspect of consistency also applies to the other qualities of a player, speed and strategy. Third, consistent can also mean a player's ability to control the power bar; he who slips or overslices/underslices often cannot be considered consistent--even though it is a simple mistake it can cost entire games.




new words:

MACROMANAGEMENT (Macro) - economics term used to describe production management at a large scale. This is commonly applied in games like starcraft, but it can also be applied to gb. Macromanagement can refer to the overall management of a team, in 3vs3 for example. Having a boomer as your first-turner is good macromanagement, having a jd as your last-turner is bad macromanagement. In addition, macromanagement can refer to a player's or a team's knowledge of who/what/how. For example, if your team wants to same time, good macromanagement would be to have your boomer player shoot the ice opponent, you ice player player shoot the boomer opponent, and your nak player shoot the armor opponent. Get it? Macromanagement = knowledge of the large-scale details

MICROMANAGEMENT (Micro) - economics term used to describe production management at a small scale. This is commonly applied in games like starcraft, but it can also be applied to gb. Micromanagement is an individual player's management of small-scale situations. Hiding, moving ontop of one opponent to avoid being shot by another (I call this taking hostage), deciding to F8 instead of dualing like a madman, this is good micro. Respawning at a dangerous spot and dying quickly, shooting from one spot and one spot only without ever moving at all, bad delay management, this is poor micro. Micromanagement = individual in-game decisions that will benefit you, mainly concerned, but not limited to, having good delay decisions.

Taking Hostage - Micromanagement move that an individual player can do in proximity to an opponent to avoid being shot at by another opponent. This move essentially requires good delay judgement as well as speed to really make it work.

First-Turner - a First-turner is not simply a player that happens to go first. A first-turner is a player who is good at being the first turn player in a team based on decisions, precision, and speed. A first-turner must know who to shoot from the waiting room.
(I could develop on Second-Turner, Third-Turner, and even Fourth-Turner, if anyone would like me to)




already existing but not taken into account by most players:

Waiting Room - the "noob get ready" stage previous to a game. In the waiting room, you can check for ranks in the opposing team, this will tell you the opposite team's shooting order. from there, you can figure out who to shoot and what strategy you will device for that game. Some of you may say "oh cmon everyone knows that" but I am sure none of you do. So take this more into account when you host a room or hop around.

Loading Room - the "omg lag" stage previous to a game. In the loading room, 3 great things are revealed to you. 1- positions, so you should immediately think who you will shoot based on map positions. 2- distance, so you should have a relative idea of at least the wind 0 shots for who you will need to shoot. 3- any changes to your already-deviced strategy due to difficult positions or whatever, you should make those decisions right then and there, at the Loading Room.



notice that none of the excuse words were included: Slipping, overslicing/underslicing, etc. Let's not use excuses :)


Post here any other words that you may want to add, or that you want to discuss further. Thank you. My emphasis is on macro/micro. Input appreciated.
ProfessorPap
hello, mister pf4... something.
i have no idea how to pronounce your name but then i don't remember all the droid names from star wars, either.

anyway, interesting post.

QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 27 2009, 12:34 PM) *

Feel- Certainly the most debated word of all. The word FEEL really originated at the very beginning of gunbound gaming, from korean gb. The word attempts to explain the relationship between the mouse and the hand--literally. With Feel, the hand moves the mouse until it feels right. In all honestly, FEEL = GUESSING. If you say you play by feel, that literally means you guess every shot! whether that guessing is blind or educated, thats something else. Perhaps we can agree to use the word FEEL as a replacement of EDUCATED GUESSING. But FEEL is (in its most literal form) by no means related to MEMORIZING. Saying that you used feel from a 70 3.0 shot is NOT FEEL!

you're assuming that the player is using drag.

and i wouldn't call many drag players "feel players" because even if they don't use 'formulas', most of them do use distance-power marks.
and the ones who don't use distance-power marks still have a visual indicator (the power bar) that over time they'll probably memorise and use to play back their shots. is that still called "feel"? i never thought so.

at the very least there should be a distinction made between drag feel players and slice feel players.
slice feel players play GB in arguably the hardest way possible- having to use timing for all their shots. no visual indicators to help them remember their shots- more of a game within a game based on coordination.
pf4ugc4
oh, no, i didn't mean to make a distinction when i said "feel the mouse". it was more of a metaphor of how the power increases in the power bar (like the player is one with the red moving power). drag players or slice players could both be feel players. i dont really understand why you say slice players have a harder time, slice and drag really make no difference as far as feel is concerned. slice or drag only make a difference in speed (and accuracy considering ass shots). not in feel or formula play.

my main point is. 70 3.0 , 81 full , 32 2.5 , all those are formulas. simple formulas (a = b). just like [ wind0 + (wind# x factor x distance.factor) ] is a formula, a more complex formula.
memorizing that 75 3.0 lands at the 3.0 mark on your power bar is also a formula. none of these things can be considered feel. feel is pure and most complex relationship with the mouse/space bar, that, as the power increases in the in-game power bar, the player tacitly knows which power is appropiate.

in essence, i am arguing that just about all players (except for complete noobs) are formula players. noobs are the only ones who guess every shot (educated or not, its true). "pros" dont, because guessing is not always the most reliable method to hit your opponent. simple or complex formulas are. So, unless u guess every shot, thou shall not brand yourself as a feel player. emot-aaa.gif this is not to say that feel is noob! it is simply an extinct method of play. thats my point of view.
xDemonessx
i agree with what you said about feel, but what do you call people who use those formulas but guess on wind and power adjustments? im one of the people that knows landmarks from angles 60-80 using varying powers from 2.2-4.0 (unless they are close range). i know bjsl, and basically can pick an angle and power at random and connect with most bots in 0 wind. i rarely measure, and i never rely on my math skills to help me formulate wind or power adjustments.

so basically, what i think can be said about some players is that they form in 0 wind and feel/form in higher winds. Because of what you said about FEEL having nothing to do with memorization, i would not term this method of play under it. However, i wouldnt call it formulating either. I think that the landmarking method brings the gameplay of gunbound to its roots in thors hammer, not a lot of people remember how much "looser" the angle adjustments where and how different the UI and feel of the game was. even so landmarking can still be applied to the new game play. People who play with this style are actually easy to pick out as well, because you can tell their shots airtime rarely changes unless its over 1 screen. This is the way ive always played, and i honestly gained a "feel" for most winds even though i dont have the factor memorized.

Im not even sure the amount of people who play this way, but im sure its common enough among experienced and casual veterans.
ProfessorPap
QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 27 2009, 02:04 PM) *

oh, no, i didn't mean to make a distinction when i said "feel the mouse". it was more of a metaphor of how the power increases in the power bar (like the player is one with the red moving power). drag players or slice players could both be feel players. i dont really understand why you say slice players have a harder time, slice and drag really make no difference as far as feel is concerned. slice or drag only make a difference in speed (and accuracy considering ass shots). not in feel or formula play.

my main point is. 70 3.0 , 81 full , 32 2.5 , all those are formulas. simple formulas (a = b). just like [ wind0 + (wind# x factor x distance.factor) ] is a formula, a more complex formula.
memorizing that 75 3.0 lands at the 3.0 mark on your power bar is also a formula. none of these things can be considered feel. feel is pure and most complex relationship with the mouse/space bar, that, as the power increases in the in-game power bar, the player tacitly knows which power is appropiate.

in essence, i am arguing that just about all players (except for complete noobs) are formula players. noobs are the only ones who guess every shot (educated or not, its true). "pros" dont, because guessing is not always the most reliable method to hit your opponent. simple or complex formulas are. So, unless u guess every shot, thou shall not brand yourself as a feel player. emot-aaa.gif this is not to say that feel is noob! it is simply an extinct method of play. thats my point of view.

*sigh*

well, on the positive side, nobody is holding a gun to my head and forcing me to waste my time arguing about a game i no longer play. :)

rock on...
pf4ugc4
oO professorpap if i didnt answer your question feel free to explain further. what i understood from your response is that drag players can't feel but slice players can, and my response was that whether u drag or slice, that has nothing to do with whether you formulate or feel. a drag player can use the third power bar to memorize 75 3.0, but a slice player can do the same oO? so i dont get what u were gettin at. the only difference between dragging or slicing is really speed and accuracy, not method of play.

demoness, that was exactly my argument. take this example: one player plays all his games only knowing that 70 3.0 is 1sd, nothing else. another player uses complex formulas (70 +/- wind x factor). I make no distinction between these players, because both use formulas. whether the first player uses basic formulas, and the second player uses more advanced formulas, that is irrelevant. so like i said before, in this sense, most people (that we see in forums like this one for example) are formula players, even if they dont have 100 windcharts printed next to them as they play, just by knowing that 70 3.0 is 1sd. get it? so the only distinction that can between those kinds of players is the extent to which they formulate. i did not include such distinction in the initial post, but i suppose you could simply say "i am a basic-formula user" or "i am a advanced-formula user"; i understand the first statement sounds more demeaning than saying "i am a feel player" but its not necessarily a bad thing, its just not right to say you're a feel player if you know even the most basic types of formula (wind 0 landmarks).

to be honest, this is an attempt to eradicate the "formula is for noobs" rubish, because we all use formulas (those people im sure know that 70 3.0 = 1sd for armor) so they are formula players themselves. like i said before, feel is extinct except in players that dont even know basic landmark formulas.
PUTOOOOO
soooo since I use tracing method and powerfeel method what does that consider me?
pf4ugc4
if i asked you what is 1sd fork wind 0 no elevation, u would know the answer right? that means ur a formula player. Plus, your methods are just visualization of elevation based on non-elevated and/or wind-0 shots. so based on what i explained in this topic, you're a formula player, much like everyone else. but again, to what extent you form, thats something else. whether ur a basic formula player or advanced formula player, that's up to u to judge, it'd be impossible to set exact parameters as to what it means to be a basic or an advanced form player.

a player cannot be a feel player and a form player at the same time. the two methods of play (in their most theoretical forms) contradict each other. if you are a feel player, you guess every shot, but if you already know that 40 2.4 (or watever the 1sd fork is) then u will inevitably use that as a reference and you won't be purely guessing any more. if you're a formula player and you know that wind against is /2 +1 then you will never purely guess that wind, therefore ur not playing by feel.

there may be instances when a form player just shoots (and wow it hits, ok thats feel) or when a feel player tries to mentally divide a wind to lower a certain amount of angles for one turn. then yes, those players have used their opposite methods in one turn, but u cant always be a feel/form player, they cant be integrated into one, its either one or the other.


it seems like people don't exactly like being branded a formula player, or like there is this outmost respect for those who stick to the ways of the "feel". thats bogus. in gb, 4 things matter: accuracy, speed, consistency, and strategic play, above all other minor details. if u can maximize any of those by using formula instead of feel, then formulas should be welcomed. period.
xDemonessx
QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 27 2009, 07:55 PM) *

emot-words.gif




I could use a calculator if i wanted too, and probably hit every shot. i think its more about how casual the player is not what methods they choose.
PUTOOOOO
This is feel


This is formula
IPB Image

I guess that gut feeling I get when I want to stop slicing around the power bar is also formula according to your definition?

and lol never seen anyone use the term macro and micro in gb :).

maybe you definition of formula and feel differ from a lot of people but I'm sure a lot of people agree with me on my definition of formula.

Allow me to give on my own terminology!

Casual lay back players(usually feel players): don't give a shit but just shoot and if you were to ask him/her what factor they would go "uhhh i dunno, I feel?"

Tense players (formula players) : think about their shot and takes 30 years to calculate their shots and refers to a wind circle thats beside them printed out.

btw a wind chart is a circle up to 359 factors ( 0 and 360 are the same) its up to the creator how many factors he wants to fit in there
pf4ugc4
lets make this the last feel/formula discussion and focus on the other terms. but before that, yes, macro and micro are a great thing for players to keep in mind as they learn to play and become better because it will make them reason through their in-game decisions to the point where they realize if "not moving was a good decision (bad micro)" or having the "weaskest mobile in the team go against the strongest in the other" was a good overall decision (bad macro). if these terms are welcomed enough into the community, players will think when they play as opposed to just shooting. so if you see someone taking hostage, go ahead and throw a "nice micro" comment in there, and that'll get things started.

ok the response. clearly u 2 are examples of the many who hold a misconception of feel being "worthy" or some sort of tradition that must be kept alive. it isnt...and formula isnt either...they are just 2 methods of playing a game (like playing zerg protoss or terran in starcraft, who cares what u use, just use what u are best with). if you can hit all shots with formula, u should do it, and if u can hit with pure feel, do it. there is no theoretical difference between the two. in practice, formulas are usually more accurate, and feel is usually faster. but in theory, they are the same shit, no hidden meaning of "good" or "bad".

adrian, your laid back player has a flaw (aside from the term itself that makes him look cooler than the tense player, when in reality they are just 2 loser kids playing a free-online game, so please make no distinction other than methodology). if he does a whatever shot with angle 70 after knowing that 70 3.0 = 1sd, that is, in theory, no longer feel. no matter if he "feels" the power as he slices/drags. this is because 70 3.0 gives that player enough of a reference to not be purely guessing anymore, and thats wat feel is. if u shoot the randomly picked angle 38 with the randomly picked power 2.87, thats feel. or if u shoot with angle 70 without knowing any reference at all, thats pure theoretical feel.

your tense player also has a flaw. if you think formulas are just windcharts and physics and etc, well then u didnt even bother to read the terms of the first post. they are, but a formula doesnt have to be a complicated set of factors, a formula can be a simple equation (70 3.0). the equations are very similar if you think about it: angle 70 with power 3.0 will hit the 800th pixel if wind = 0 and elevation = 0 ; angle Y with power X will hit the 800th pixel if wind = A and elevation = 0 (base.angle + A x factor = Y with X power).
so until u admit that u knew that too (and a lot more other landmarks, even factors, even memorized shots, even screen-implanted landmarks, like most players) you will realize ur a formula player, at least in theory. (and yes the circle can have 360 wind indicators obviously but not in the game)

let me put this clear once and for all: in theory, any shot derived from any reference is a formulated shot. whether that reference is basic (70 3.0) or advanced (wind x factor + base), or whether that resulting shot accurate or inaccurate (hits or not), is not the point in discussion in theorical terminology. this is an attempt to make a clear-cut distinction between what is formula and what is feel. a youtube video of an asian guy smashing the green doe as the other moves it around without getting hit, and a 70bjsl of ice is not a clear cut distinction. sorry buddy. serious gb players shouldnt be content to loosely accept bad definitions of those terms.



but it is also fair to add the out-of-theory, in-practice perspective. IN PRACTICE, players may combine both methods, but the methods attempt to explain each individual shot, whether that shot was felt or formulated. In theory, if a player simply knows that 70 3.0 = 1sd he is formulating that shot, because a feel player would know nothing and he might do a full shot! but of course, in practice 70 3.0 is probably not a good enough reference to make you hit in wind or elevated conditions. thats where "in practice feel" comes in. everyone already knows that. but what is important to realize is that there is no pure guessing in that method of play. therefore, in theory there cannot be a feel/form hybrid, but in practice there can be a hybrid.
Htd
QUOTE(xDemonessx @ Mar 29 2009, 04:48 AM) *

QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 27 2009, 07:55 PM) *

emot-words.gif




I could use a calculator if i wanted too, and probably hit every shot. i think its more about how casual the player is not what methods they choose.

I highly doubt that.
BaAaZoOoKaAa
well its pretty hard not to hit every shot (or at least get close) if you use a calculator. granting that you have enough time to calculate. I use formulas, but when I feel, i have to use slice. It's more like coordination-based (i know this sounds funny lol). if I personally use feel its because i have no time to calculate so i shoot a random guess
PUTOOOOO
some people just don't understand us feel players since they don't know what feel is like T_T
Htd
I don't care if someone can hit ALL their shots. As long as they play smart and effective. This is why aimbot guilds fall prey..
PUTOOOOO
QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Mar 29 2009, 11:55 AM) *

lets make this the last feel/formula discussion and focus on the other terms. but before that, yes, macro and micro are a great thing for players to keep in mind as they learn to play and become better because it will make them reason through their in-game decisions to the point where they realize if "not moving was a good decision (bad micro)" or having the "weaskest mobile in the team go against the strongest in the other" was a good overall decision (bad macro). if these terms are welcomed enough into the community, players will think when they play as opposed to just shooting. so if you see someone taking hostage, go ahead and throw a "nice micro" comment in there, and that'll get things started.

ok the response. clearly u 2 are examples of the many who hold a misconception of feel being "worthy" or some sort of tradition that must be kept alive. it isnt...and formula isnt either...they are just 2 methods of playing a game (like playing zerg protoss or terran in starcraft, who cares what u use, just use what u are best with). if you can hit all shots with formula, u should do it, and if u can hit with pure feel, do it. there is no theoretical difference between the two. in practice, formulas are usually more accurate, and feel is usually faster. but in theory, they are the same shit, no hidden meaning of "good" or "bad".

adrian, your laid back player has a flaw (aside from the term itself that makes him look cooler than the tense player, when in reality they are just 2 loser kids playing a free-online game, so please make no distinction other than methodology). if he does a whatever shot with angle 70 after knowing that 70 3.0 = 1sd, that is, in theory, no longer feel. no matter if he "feels" the power as he slices/drags. this is because 70 3.0 gives that player enough of a reference to not be purely guessing anymore, and thats wat feel is. if u shoot the randomly picked angle 38 with the randomly picked power 2.87, thats feel. or if u shoot with angle 70 without knowing any reference at all, thats pure theoretical feel.

your tense player also has a flaw. if you think formulas are just windcharts and physics and etc, well then u didnt even bother to read the terms of the first post. they are, but a formula doesnt have to be a complicated set of factors, a formula can be a simple equation (70 3.0). the equations are very similar if you think about it: angle 70 with power 3.0 will hit the 800th pixel if wind = 0 and elevation = 0 ; angle Y with power X will hit the 800th pixel if wind = A and elevation = 0 (base.angle + A x factor = Y with X power).
so until u admit that u knew that too (and a lot more other landmarks, even factors, even memorized shots, even screen-implanted landmarks, like most players) you will realize ur a formula player, at least in theory. (and yes the circle can have 360 wind indicators obviously but not in the game)

let me put this clear once and for all: in theory, any shot derived from any reference is a formulated shot. whether that reference is basic (70 3.0) or advanced (wind x factor + base), or whether that resulting shot accurate or inaccurate (hits or not), is not the point in discussion in theorical terminology. this is an attempt to make a clear-cut distinction between what is formula and what is feel. a youtube video of an asian guy smashing the green doe as the other moves it around without getting hit, and a 70bjsl of ice is not a clear cut distinction. sorry buddy. serious gb players shouldnt be content to loosely accept bad definitions of those terms.



but it is also fair to add the out-of-theory, in-practice perspective. IN PRACTICE, players may combine both methods, but the methods attempt to explain each individual shot, whether that shot was felt or formulated. In theory, if a player simply knows that 70 3.0 = 1sd he is formulating that shot, because a feel player would know nothing and he might do a full shot! but of course, in practice 70 3.0 is probably not a good enough reference to make you hit in wind or elevated conditions. thats where "in practice feel" comes in. everyone already knows that. but what is important to realize is that there is no pure guessing in that method of play. therefore, in theory there cannot be a feel/form hybrid, but in practice there can be a hybrid.


Now see here! emot-ssj.gif I never said it was according to your definition. don't just think you can make a thread about terminologies and expect everyone to agree on them from the start. I'm merely stating my own definitions that many people .

Feel to me is just not using any wind charts and counting on your own estimation on adjustments emot-eng101.gif

Formula to me is someone getting the final product as a final number emot-eng101.gif

its like those guys hammering that mochi. do you think they think about they amount of joules they put into every time they hammer it? NO, they just fucking hammer the shit out of it! Unless they get a team of scientists to get a machine to measure the amount of joules and a lot of other crap then that's formula. emot-billnye.gif
you know what their land mark is? the mochi and they hammer it until they guy FEELS for the right texture kinda like me slicing on the power bar but I use my gut feeling. emot-barf.gif please be more serious about this and read peoples av-41.pngav-41.png av-41.png av-41.png posts
pf4ugc4
that's that for the feel / form discussions. any other terms people want to discuss--not bitch about?
1nsanemofo
food and gunbound have nothing to do with each other, in all fairness
PUTOOOOO
allow me to propose another example of my point of view of feel
everything is math amirite? now you say a feel only consists of random shooting with no landmarks. I agree to a certain extent. because lets say a person with his first time playing gunbound shoots then undershots technically that shot he just made is now a landmark and hes gonna remember and then for his next shot hes gonna increase his power to hit the target but this time he over shoots there is another landmark made. Does this make him a formula player now? I highly doubt it
Htd
QUOTE(PUTOOOOO @ Mar 30 2009, 06:25 PM) *

allow me to propose another example of my point of view of feel before you delete it again
everything is math amirite? now you say a feel only consists of random shooting with no landmarks. I agree to a certain extent. because lets say a person with his first time playing gunbound shoots then undershots technically that shot he just made is now a landmark and hes gonna remember and then for his next shot hes gonna increase his power to hit the target but this time he over shoots there is another landmark made. Does this make him a formula player now? I highly doubt it

Gathered feel processed into quick and accurate formula. g9
PUTOOOOO
so are you suggesting that the the guy is considered a formula player right after his first shot he made in his entire life?
Htd
QUOTE(PUTOOOOO @ Mar 30 2009, 08:28 PM) *

so are you suggesting that the the guy is considered a formula player right after his first shot he made in his entire life?

No but what is it he remembered to hit someone? Just a mental note or formula?
pf4ugc4
right. the second shot would be (in theory, or as u said it, technically) a formulated shot, yes. lets say the first shot was 70 2.8. then target moves, wind goes up +1, elevation increased, any changes you want. if he is still shooting with 70 2.8 as a reference (including, for example, if he goes to 65 and lowers 0.03 power per angle) then yeah, form (in theory). if he moves, changes angle to wat happens to be 57, shoots a random power of 2.45, feel (in theory). thats why i said previously that feel and form are used to describe individual shots, not the players themselves but their shots. i cannot be feel. my shot is. i cannot be formula. my shot is. its a misconception that we all fall to--describing players as feel or form, when its our shots that are described that way, and its our shots that describe us (in other words, some shots are feel some shots are form. if our shots describe us, we're all hybrids. but when it comes to describing our shots, most of us use formulated shots [basic or advanced] more than feel shots)

now in practice, this player would be considered a feel player because he is learning as the game evolves and he is not bringing outside knowledge into the game. the -in practice- clause is what everyone already knows. the -in theory- clause is the "by the book" distinction. i hope most people can agree to this.
PUTOOOOO
mmmm even though if its technically true(according to your definition). I think there has to be at least be standard of what is considered feel. like a feel player would be 20% form ( landmarks) and 80% feel ( elevation , wind adjustments).

I just cant think of landmarks as a formula imo.
because its not like there is an equation there which is what a formula is. feel is math but just an guesstimation an adjustment. while imo landmarks is neither feel nor formula. no different from knowing what black and white is( besides the type of wave length and photon that is being absorbed and reflected)

a formula is a symbiotic way to express a pattern .

maybe if you think of 20 parts as full screen being on 20th part then 90 - 20 = 70 and then every half screen away that's 0.075 addition thus getting 2.85 + 0.75(2) getting 70 3.0 then that's a formula.
being 90-x=A x= part per screen , A = new angle


but i never think of it like that but simply a landmark
its only a formula if you use it to find the landmark you have no clue about imo.
BaAaZoOoKaAa
yeah i agree there is some extentbut a player plays the way he wants to. its ur own preference to use feel or formula. i agree with efrain also but i think there should be another word for it. wat adrian's saying i agree is considered feel. but for what efrain's saying it should be called like pure feel.

because wat adrians saying is you pretty much almost do "feel" the shot when you shoot. i can easily tell when my shot is overpowered right when it leaves my bot. that is feel because you literally get a feeling of the shot (probably thru experience).

i understand what efraibs saying and i think it should be edited to pure feel instead of just feel alone.

i also agree that this shouldnt be another feel vs formula thread like many of the other interesting ones posted everywhere.

well thats my opinion (just as this thread is all opinion based on the contributing posters). there will always be this argument..but cmon guys lets just play for fun. however you want to play is your choice and you can think w/e you want (i choose like 35% feel 65% form but 100% memory in 1v1). as lomg as nobody aimbots, this topic of feel vs. form shouldnt even matter.

again, thats just my opinion
freakOmani
I think PUTO has the best understanding of what feel means... which I agree with completely because I'm a trico player. I have a good zero-wind foundation, but when it comes to different elevations and far distances (especially when I play random maps), I don't have a precise way to figure out my rotation. Instead, I imagine the spin and fire accordingly. If I miss, then I make the adjustments needed to correct my shot... that doesn't necessarily make me a formula player. It's an adjustment based on how my last shot rotated and the area it hit.
Htd
QUOTE(freakOmani @ Apr 5 2009, 01:05 AM) *

I think PUTO has the best understanding of what feel means... which I agree with completely because I'm a trico player. I have a good zero-wind foundation, but when it comes to different elevations and far distances (especially when I play random maps), I don't have a precise way to figure out my rotation. Instead, I imagine the spin and fire accordingly. If I miss, then I make the adjustments needed to correct my shot... that doesn't necessarily make me a formula player. It's an adjustment based on how my last shot rotated and the area it hit.

You use 0 wind landmarks. You're a formula player. No argument here.


~To efrain. I'm assuming angle breaking and bunging would be under micro or macro lol?
pf4ugc4
yeah freak0mani, htd is right. if u use wind 0 landmarks at all (accurate or inaccurate doesnt matter) u can only be a feel player in practice, cuz in theory if u use those landmarks for your shots then its no longer feel but formula.

now, good question htd.

angle breaking is an example of good micro, but it can also be part of your macro. if you're in a 1vs1 for example, and u must kill his angle or u die, thats a micromanagement decision. however, if ur in a 3vs3, trying to same time the other team, but u must stall the sweep round a little longer, u should rape angle in order to gain some extra time for the sweep. that would be a great level of macro, while at the same time being a micro decision since u raped his angle to avoid getting shot (or keep one of your mates from being shot). notice the difference between micro and macro in this example; micro affects directly only u (but of course all micro decisions also have an indirect effect on the overall macro control of the game), whereas macro deals with the overall control of the match.

bunging is probably just micro. bunging is usually the faster way to end an opponent than actually killing him, so it is an individual decision at the micro level. but of course u should be well aware of what the aftermath of bunging that person will be--all micro decisions affect the macro of the game. for example, if ur in score 2vs2 and u bunge too fast, that person will respawn and your team will probably get same time'd. so while bunging is at the individual level, it will have effects on the macromanagement of the game.

PUTOOOOO
That doesn't mean hes not a feel player. It's like grouping him with the guys that use wind charts to aim every shot. we can keep debating about 0 wind not being a landmark but our definition of formula is completely different as I explained the land marks are only formulas if they are found through an equation. but its just neither feel or formula but memory for landmarks.
Htd
QUOTE(PUTOOOOO @ Apr 5 2009, 12:29 PM) *

That doesn't mean hes not a feel player. It's like grouping him with the guys that use wind charts to aim every shot. we can keep debating about 0 wind not being a landmark but our definition of formula is completely different as I explained the land marks are only formulas if they are found through an equation. but its just neither feel or formula but memory for landmarks.

There is no way anyone can be decent at trico and not know some kind of factors or nulls for certain angles. When trico players say they're feel...it's nonsense. I don't know whats so bad about being labeled a form player...
PUTOOOOO
I'm just not convinced on this labeling on what is a form player. I never said it was a bad thing except for those guys that take forever to shoot with a calculator + windchart beside him.
BaAaZoOoKaAa
ive actually been playing feel trico gba and im doing pretty good. u can label me as a feel player, but i dont really do much formula anymore because i know the bot by now in my head (not like memorized factors).. all i know is that the power has to be like 2.75 for example. i completely guess the angle after [i]feeling[/] my distance from the enemy. i admit i do measure when i have enough time or when its
an important shot so i guess im labeled as a formula player after all of this. i also record shots for my trico formula for my guild whenever i can so that def. labels me as a formula player i guess cuz i probably subconsciously memorize some shots.

also just a suggestion: since ur so persistent on your opinion about feel vs form, shouldnt u classify them as different types of form players? adrian probably made the best point, which is that there is a difference between those who feel their formula and those who use rulers, calculators, and charts that get nowhere?

----------------------
also i think you should add terms that people use in game (Kst, GG, powerbomb, force)

like:
KST: method of killing the opponents in a row before they can spawn and use their extra life
GG: Good Game
powerbomb: killing enemy with high power shots like turtle skybomb
force: forcing a suicide from enemy team to prevent KST

.. thats the kind of terminology you hear more often
pf4ugc4
as far as your suggestions go, kst, force, and powerbomb all seem to be individual strategies or micro moves in and of themselves so i didnt specify strategy types in the terms list but soon i think i'll make their own topic (like one for score, etc). and gg is really just something koreans say at the end of a game, regardless of whether it was a good game or a bad game. in fact, not saying gg is offensive. they dont say gg at a crucial point of the game, nor do they say it only when it was a very close game, they just say it out of respect kinda thing...

and i didnt make any kind of distinction between the extent to which a player formulates because in theory its black and white, you either form or you feel. in practice there may be a gray aera, but how could i possibly measure it? from 1 - 10? thats up to each player to make himself belief lol not me. wind chart, calculator, watever u want, thats how the game is played. if u refuse to admit that most of your shots have a certain % of form in them thats your own conceit
PUTOOOOO
If it was "black and white" there wouldn't even be a discussion. I can say there are players that don't formula at all but you seem to think memorizing is formulating.
pf4ugc4
i dont seem to think so, i do think so. u dont understand the meaning of the word formula in its broadest terms. lets stop this arguing back and forth. not the place for it here.
BaAaZoOoKaAa
i think killing at the same time has pretty much become a universal strategy almost similar to bunging or using true angles. not many people used it in the past, but now it's pretty rare to play a guildwar and not attempt same time or get same timed.
CapnKJ2
This is crap:

Feel- Certainly the most debated word of all. The word FEEL really originated at the very beginning of gunbound gaming, from korean gb. The word attempts to explain the relationship between the mouse and the hand--literally. With Feel, the hand moves the mouse until it feels right. In all honestly, FEEL = GUESSING. If you say you play by feel, that literally means you guess every shot! whether that guessing is blind or educated, thats something else. Perhaps we can agree to use the word FEEL as a replacement of EDUCATED GUESSING. But FEEL is (in its most literal form) by no means related to MEMORIZING. Saying that you used feel from a 70 3.0 shot is NOT FEEL!

C'mon...Feel is more than an educated guess. It borders on the subconcious and psychic at times and is much more than you make it sound. It is the way the game was intended to be played and the only true talent lies in Feel. Now I'm sounding biased, but that's okay. I am.

Most of the rest of this post is pretty well written IMO.
pf4ugc4
dont take this the wrong way, but who are you to judge that "feel" was the way the game was meant to be played?

if that is the case, can you explain why is physics and geometry applicable to the game? why would applying those concepts into formulated shots not be deemed worthy of your respect?

maybe you should take a look at other gunbound servers. formula players exist in all. especially chinese, so many forms out there...talent doesnt lie in either feel or form anyway. talent is knowing the game, and how to play it. i can hardly name more than a handful of people that do so.
Tendulkar
I propose a theory of hybrids. Neither form and neither feel players. Most of us who play GB are hybrids. The fact is that some are better than others. There is a white and black area, and then you have gray....in which most of us belong. All depends on how farther an individual has progressed in this "gray" area. I still believe that the best players out there are all hybrids.....



Name the people who have talent in the game Efrain....Lets see your list mate.
pf4ugc4
nah thats not what this topic is about. and im ok with your hybrid theory, except that form/feel really describe individual shots, not the players themselves. im not "form" and ur not "feel", but our shots are either/or. a player can be a hybrid, one turn he might use feel and the next form, no questioning that. but a shot is black or white; you either guess it based only on experience/gut feeling (feel), or you use an equation that points you in the direction of the result (form). agree?
CapnKJ2
I know I was a bit harsh but I just don't think that the programmers of Gunbound actually thought people would draw out graphs and charts just to get a hit. I'm sure they didn't expect people to use calculators while shooting lol.

The reason I don't believe that formula takes talent is simply because once a tried and true formula is out, it's just a matter of plugging in variables. Anybody can do that. HOWEVER, creating a formula is an entirely different matter...that takes some dedication and intelligence...not sure about talent though.

Hope that's a more fair way of saying my opinion.
Htd
QUOTE(CapnKJ2 @ Apr 17 2009, 01:43 AM) *

I know I was a bit harsh but I just don't think that the programmers of Gunbound actually thought people would draw out graphs and charts just to get a hit. I'm sure they didn't expect people to use calculators while shooting lol.

The reason I don't believe that formula takes talent is simply because once a tried and true formula is out, it's just a matter of plugging in variables. Anybody can do that. HOWEVER, creating a formula is an entirely different matter...that takes some dedication and intelligence...not sure about talent though.

Hope that's a more fair way of saying my opinion.

I always see posts like yours. Who says form players always hit...lol? Get an all form trico or fork user and have them play on maps other than miramo, most likely they will fail. It takes more than forms to be consistent.
PUTOOOOO
QUOTE(pf4ugc4 @ Apr 16 2009, 08:21 PM) *

you either guess it based only on experience/gut feeling (feel), or you use an equation that points you in the direction of the result (form). agree?


since you say forms are equations you finally agree land marks are not formulas and that there are people that use Experience/gut feeling AKA land marks and wind adjustments with out equations? emot-colbert.gif
BaAaZoOoKaAa
well if u really think about it..if ur not measuring dont u feel your displacement from the enemy? and you feel the power. just something to consider. i personally dont think measuring is formulating (because a formula is literally an equation)

physics relates to gb because the shots travel in an almost parabolic manner. if there wasnt a fixed formula behind gunbound, your first shot (lets say angle 70 at 0 wind) will be 3 bars and your second shot may be like 2 bars.

im not really any1 to clarify this cuz imnot like some ultra gb god or something (none of us can, actually). and for the physocs, ull have to ask some pros like lichking mashin mishigne or something
CapnKJ2
QUOTE(Htd @ Apr 17 2009, 11:59 AM) *

QUOTE(CapnKJ2 @ Apr 17 2009, 01:43 AM) *

I know I was a bit harsh but I just don't think that the programmers of Gunbound actually thought people would draw out graphs and charts just to get a hit. I'm sure they didn't expect people to use calculators while shooting lol.

The reason I don't believe that formula takes talent is simply because once a tried and true formula is out, it's just a matter of plugging in variables. Anybody can do that. HOWEVER, creating a formula is an entirely different matter...that takes some dedication and intelligence...not sure about talent though.

Hope that's a more fair way of saying my opinion.

I always see posts like yours. Who says form players always hit...lol? Get an all form trico or fork user and have them play on maps other than miramo, most likely they will fail. It takes more than forms to be consistent.


Wait a sec, maybe I'm retarded (I am tired right now) but did I say Formula players always hit? If it sounded that way, I definitely didn't mean it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.